Should we search for non-biological "life"?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of searching for non-biological "life," particularly in the context of astrobiology and the potential existence of extraterrestrial artificial intelligence (AI). Participants explore the implications of defining life, the criteria for detecting AI, and the relationship between biological and non-biological entities.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the search for extraterrestrial life should include the possibility of extraterrestrial AI, alongside biological life.
  • There is a debate about the definition of life, with some arguing that "life" and "biology" are synonymous, while others propose that AI could represent a form of non-biological life.
  • Participants discuss the criteria for defining life, including self-propagation, energy generation, and the ability to pass on information to future generations.
  • Some express uncertainty about what to look for in the search for extraterrestrial AI, questioning whether it would be detectable through radio signals or other forms of radiation.
  • There are references to literature, such as Michio Kaku's "The Future of the Mind," which some believe addresses related topics.
  • Philosophical considerations are raised regarding the nature of consciousness and intelligence in relation to AI and biological life.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definitions of life and AI, nor on the implications of searching for non-biological life. Multiple competing views remain regarding the nature of life and the criteria for detecting AI.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of life and AI, as well as the assumptions underlying the criteria for detection. The conversation reflects a range of philosophical and scientific perspectives without resolving these complexities.

SciencewithDrJ
I am very interested in Astrobiology and just came across this 7-year old abstract by Seth Shostak (of SETI):

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094576510002195

There is a lot of emphasis on searching for biological life outside of our solar system, especially with the abundance of "habitable zone exoplanets" discovered by Kepler.

But in view of projections that we will be able to assemble self propagating AI here on Earth in the coming few decades, wouldn't it be possible that our search may well be for extraterrestrial AI in addition to search for biological life? And if so, what would we look for, if not for biochemical signature of life?
 
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Good idea.

SciencewithDrJ said:
wouldn't it be possible that our search may well be for extraterrestrial AI in addition to search for biological life?

Quite possibly, but I am glad that you still mentioned "in addition".
Most of what you mentioned in your post is discussed in a book I've read 'The Future of the Mind" by Prof Michio Kaku. It is an extremely engaging book. Will answer your question.

SciencewithDrJ said:
And if so, what would we look for, if not for biochemical signature of life?

Very good question. I don't know.:smile:
 
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ISamson said:
Most of what you mentioned in your post is discussed in a book I've read 'The Future of the Mind" by Prof Michio Kaku

Many thanks. I will look for this reference.
 
It's not the only book by this author...
:)
 
The title is a contradiction in itself. Life and biology are synonymous. We could talk about non carbon based life, but non-biological life doesn't make sense.
 
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fresh_42 said:
The title is a contradiction in itself. Life and biology are synonymous. We could talk about non carbon based life, but non-biological life doesn't make sense.

Ha, good one. I dod not notice.
 
ISamson said:
It's not the only book by this author...
:)

Yes, I know, I have two of books already, Physics of the Impossible, and Physics of the Future.
 
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SciencewithDrJ said:
Yes, I know, I have two of books already, Physics of the Impossible, and Physics of the Future.

Nice.
 
  • #10
fresh_42 said:
The title is a contradiction in itself. Life and biology are synonymous. We could talk about non carbon based life, but non-biological life doesn't make sense.

Life based on future conscious AI is non-biological.
 
  • #11
ISamson said:
Ha, good one. I dod not notice.

AI conscious future life would be non-biological. You will notice I put the word life in parentheses ("Life") within the title of my posting.
 
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  • #12
SciencewithDrJ said:
Life based on future conscious AI is non-biological.
In this case, we have to rename either life or biology. I'm quite sure the ancient Greeks haven't thought about AI. And I don't think it should be called life. AI don't have a metabolism, and oil and energy probably won't count, at least I don't consider my car engine as alive. And the intelligent part of it is debatable, too, because finally it is only especially clever programmed. Is a chess computer that learns from previous made bad moves alive? In any case, this would be a matter of philosophy. βίος, however, means life.
 
  • #13
I think we are discussing intelligence...
Do we know the definition of 'life'?
The condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
 
  • #14
fresh_42 said:
In this case, we have to rename either life or biology. I'm quite sure the ancient Greeks haven't thought about AI. And I don't think it should be called life. AI don't have a metabolism, and oil and energy probably won't count, at least I don't consider my car engine as alive. And the intelligent part of it is debatable, too, because finally it is only especially clever programmed. Is a chess computer that learns from previous made bad moves alive? In any case, this would be a matter of philosophy. βίος, however, means life.

Obviously, a car engine or database or computer program are not alive because they lack to self propagate their information. There is a lot of talk about future AI with consciousness, meaning that such entities will be self aware and self replicating. That would be "life" because it passes along "information" to future generations. On Earth we have biological life based on carbon. In other worlds, there may well be non-carbon life, but still biological (meaning that it could evolve like life on Earth evolved). AI "life", on the other hand, would be of non-biological origin, but still able to pass on its information base to future generations.

The reason I posted this is to seek views and answers to my question: "wouldn't it be possible that our search may well be for extraterrestrial AI in addition to search for biological life? And if so, what would we look for, if not for biochemical signature of life?".
 
  • #15
ISamson said:
I think we are discussing intelligence...
Do we know the definition of 'life'?

Modern textbooks of Life Science define life on Earth as the property of an entity that:

(1) Has inherent information base (DNA) that is self propagating and able to pass its characteristics to future generations.
(2) It is able to accumulate raw material from its environment
(3) Generate energy from its environment
(4) Use that energy to reassemble raw material and build more copies of itself based on its information base (DNA in case of carbon-based life on Earth).
 
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  • #16
ISamson said:
I think we are discussing intelligence...

Or consciousness.
 
  • #17
SciencewithDrJ said:
(1) Has inherent information base (DNA) that is self propagating and able to pass its characteristics to future generations.
(2) It is able to accumulate raw material from its environment
(3) Generate energy from its environment
(4) Use that energy to reassemble raw material and build more copies of itself based on its information base (DNA in case of carbon-based life on Earth).

Original...
 
  • #18
ISamson said:
Or consciousness.

Actually, what I am after is to explore ideas on how we go about detecting extraterrestrial AI, in addition for search for biochemical signature of life, on other worlds. Would it be only radio signals as SETI is doing now?
 
  • #19
SciencewithDrJ said:
Would it be only radio signals as SETI is doing now?

Probably. But also radiation or something.
 
  • #20
SciencewithDrJ said:
The reason I posted this is to seek views and answers to my question: "wouldn't it be possible that our search may well be for extraterrestrial AI in addition to search for biological life? And if so, what would we look for, if not for biochemical signature of life?".

We certainly might encounter sentient or non-sentient extraterrestrial AI. As for what we should look for, it depends on the exact circumstances of the encounter and the details of our respective civilizations. However, I feel it will be fairly obvious that we've found AI and not biological life if we are able to make "close" contact. If we're simply eavesdropping on transmitted signals it will probably be difficult to tell whether these are from AI or from biological lifeforms using communications technology.

ISamson said:
Do we know the definition of 'life'?

We know our definition of life, because we've defined it. But what you're probably asking is whether or not that definition is accurate. That we cannot know. Not in the near future at least.
 
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  • #21
SciencewithDrJ said:
Modern textbooks of Life Science define life on Earth as the property of an entity that:

(1) Has inherent information base (DNA) that is self propagating and able to pass its characteristics to future generations.
(2) It is able to accumulate raw material from its environment
(3) Generate energy from its environment
(4) Use that energy to reassemble raw material and build more copies of itself based on its information base (DNA in case of carbon-based life on Earth).

We could take a cue from science fiction. The Star Gate TV show had an enemy called replicators. They would infest a ship and dismantle it to create more replicators. They resembled crabs. Their behavior was similar to an insect colony like bees or ants. I imagine that AI behavior would more likely utilize a distributed and modular form much like the replicators. In later shows the replicators evolved to be more human like but they continued to maintain their colony behavior.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_(Stargate)
 
  • #22
Drakkith said:
If we're simply eavesdropping on transmitted signals it will probably be difficult to tell whether these are from AI or from biological lifeforms using communications technology.

Thank you for the input. I agree we won't be able to tell one from the other if it is only radio signals. Unless of course somehow we detect biochemical signature of carbon-based life similar to ours, although I find this highly improbable considering the vast distances (at least with today's technology).
 
  • #23
jedishrfu said:
We could take a cue from science fiction. The Star Gate TV show had an enemy called replicators. They would infest a ship and dismantle it to create more replicators. They resembled crabs. Their behavior was similar to an insect colony like bees or ants. I imagine that AI behavior would more likely utilize a distributed and modular form much like the replicators. In later shows the replicators evolved to be more human like but they continued to maintain their colony behavior.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_(Stargate)

Thank you for the input. I have not seen this series, and now that you mention it, I would like to look it up.
 
  • #24
SciencewithDrJ said:
Thank you for the input. I have not seen this series, and now that you mention it, I would like to look it up.

Stargate SG-1 had 10 seasons (and a couple of straight-to-DVD movies which tidied up the very end of the show), which should tell you that many people thought it was a great show. I highly recommend it. If you haven't seen the movie, I'd recommend seeing the movie first and then starting with the show. The movie itself is pretty good on its own, so it's not like you'll be suffering to sit through it till you get to the show. :biggrin:
 
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  • #25
Drakkith said:
Stargate SG-1 had 10 seasons (and a couple of straight-to-DVD movies which tidied up the very end of the show), which should tell you that many people thought it was a great show. I highly recommend it. If you haven't seen the movie, I'd recommend seeing the movie first and then starting with the show. The movie itself is pretty good on its own, so it's not like you'll be suffering to sit through it till you get to the show. :biggrin:

Thank you again for the tip. I will surely find it.
 
  • #26
Isn't the whole point of looking for 'life' to find a biological species? Why should we look for non-biological 'life' if we want to find biological life?
 
  • #27
ISamson said:
Isn't the whole point of looking for 'life' to find a biological species? Why should we look for non-biological 'life' if we want to find biological life?

Lately there were lots of worries about future development of advanced AI on Earth may eventually lead to the extermination of the human race. It made me wonder if an advanced civilization somewhere in the galaxy may have already created such conscious AI. If we detect radio signals, but no biochemical signature, it may be a clue that this already happened somewhere. In which case, we may indeed have to worry about aliens, as Stephen Hawking indicated a couple of years ago.
 
  • #28
SciencewithDrJ said:
Lately there were lots of worries about future development of advanced AI on Earth may eventually lead to the extermination of the human race. It made me wonder if an advanced civilization somewhere in the galaxy may have already created such conscious AI. If we detect radio signals, but no biochemical signature, it may be a clue that this already happened somewhere. In which case, we may indeed have to worry about aliens, as Stephen Hawking indicated a couple of years ago.

You know, that most of what I told you was from the book I mentioned before by Michio Kaku?
There were entire chapters on this... I would not be able to summarise quickly here...:smile:
 
  • #29
I look forward to reading that.
 
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  • #30
SciencewithDrJ said:
I look forward to reading that.

I am glad...