Show that the union of countable sets is countable

  • Thread starter Thread starter ╔(σ_σ)╝
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Sets Union
Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around demonstrating that the union of countable sets is countable, specifically addressing the definition of countable sets and the implications of finite versus infinite sets in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to construct a bijection using a matrix representation of the sets and questions the validity of their approach. Other participants inquire about the definition of countable being used, particularly whether it includes finite sets or is limited to countably infinite sets.

Discussion Status

Participants are exploring different interpretations of countability, particularly the distinction between finite and infinite sets. Some guidance has been offered regarding the implications of using bijections versus injections in the context of finite sets. The conversation remains open with no explicit consensus reached.

Contextual Notes

There is a focus on the definitions of countable sets as provided in various texts, with some participants noting the need for clarity on whether a bijection or injection is required for a set to be considered countable. The original poster's question is framed within the constraints of a homework assignment.

╔(σ_σ)╝
Messages
839
Reaction score
2

Homework Statement



Show that if A_{1}, A_{2},... are countable sets, so is A_{1}\cup A_{2}\cup...

Homework Equations


The Attempt at a Solution



Part one of the question is okay, I would like to believe I can handle that but, part B, I am not so sure.

My solution is as follows ( using the matrix in the attached picture)Line up A_{1}, A_{2},A_{3} ... in the "X-axis" ( it's more of an axis of positive integers) and then the line up the elements of of set along the vertical columns associated with each set. Then use the function is part A of the picture to define a bijection.
\varphi : N XN \rightarrow N by \varphi(i,j) = j + \frac{k(k+1)}{2} where k= i+j.

Of course, I use the fact that the set of positive integers and natural numbers are of the same cardinality.


What do you guys think ? Is this okay ? Would this suffice?

I'm looking for another way of showing this same result, but one that is less "forced". Forced ,in the sense that, I was basicallly given the answer in part A of the question in the attached picture.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3019.jpg
    IMG_3019.jpg
    21.8 KB · Views: 536
Physics news on Phys.org
What definition of countable are you using? Does it include finite sets or does it mean countably infinite?

I think your basic approach is correct if the sets are infinite. I'll leave it to the math experts here to guide you on the details.
 
My definition of countable includes both finite and denumerable sets ( sets that have the same cardinality with N). I am using the " elementary classical analysis" txt.

Using my approach, dealing with finite sets is not a problem; since all elements will fit into the matrix with a finite size.

Do you have a different approach ? If so, I would eb interested in it.
 
My point about finite sets is that it introduces some details you have to worry about. For example, if all of your sets had n elements, then the bijection is from {1,...,n}xN to N, not NxN to N. Also, if you need a bijection in your definition, rather than an injection, then a finite set isn't countable.
 
Okay I see your point about the finite sets. If the set had finite elements then would need a different map.However, I am not what you mean by "if you need a bijection in your definition, rather than an injection, then a finite set isn't countable. " From what I understand if the elements in the set are finite but the number of sets is not then a map from {1,...,n}xN to N is definitely not a bijection since it fails to be onto. Is this your point ? However, I assume the question was defined in such a way that it makes sense since it say we should prove it is countable.
 
I just meant if your definition of countable means there's a bijection from a set to N, then a finite set can't be countable because there's no function that maps it onto N.

The only reason I brought this up is because you talked about a bijection between the union of the sets and N. Some definitions of countable require a bijection to N; others only say there has to be an injection to N.
 
vela said:
I just meant if your definition of countable means there's a bijection from a set to N, then a finite set can't be countable because there's no function that maps it onto N.

The only reason I brought this up is because you talked about a bijection between the union of the sets and N. Some definitions of countable require a bijection to N; others only say there has to be an injection to N.

You have a point and i just took a look at my textbook. It says a set that is either finite or denumerable is said to be countable. An infinite set is denumerable it has the same number of elements is the set of integers {1,2,...}.

With this definition I guess there is room for injections( when the set is finite) and bijections, for infinite sets.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
1K