Schools Skipping Straight to Grad School (don't laugh)

[mathwonk]

The best thing about college is the part that is not directed toward a narrow predetermined goal. It is the opportunity to meet people from all over the world with different perspectives than oneself, and discuss with them. The OP has already met a girlfriend in one semester. that is not an expensive experience that is a bargain.

Coming from Nashville Tennessee and a segregated environment, I met native South Africans in college and learned about apartheid from them, which was then still in effect. I heard memorable lectures by Malcolm X, Adlai Stevenson, and William Sloane Coffin, saw JFK at a football game, met the California boycott leader Cesar Chavez, and a pacifist from Lenin's revolution who gave me a new view of the shortsightedness of the violence of the radical 60's.

I also met the remarkable children of famous and everyday people from completely different walks of life, all on an equal footing and had my biases and ignorance challenged. Moved and changed by my surroundings, I marched in Montgomery, Ala, with MLK.

None of this was related to my training in mathematics, but was useful preparation for the rest of my life. Grad school by contrast was a narrowly focused and stressful grind. It is very difficult to know just exactly how you want to spend your life with only a high school education and exposure. Education is not expensive as they say, it is ignorance that is expensive.

 

[SophusLies]

@marcusl & SophusLies

No, it's not true at all that thinking about the $/hour will guarantee frustration, because I had several classes which were really great, and where that wasn't an issue at all. I wasn't thinking about the money in the least when I was taking in those classes, even to the degree that it didn't hit me until literally just now that I actually did end up paying a ton of money for those classes too. But they were worth it, I would have been more than happy to pay even more for those particular professors.

If those sorts of classes are the minority then the school just isn't doing its job, and I won't be giving them my money, sorry.

I would argue that the majority of professors even at a good school aren't anything to brag about. Over the 4 years at my school I would say I had 5 great professors. The others were good but the real truth was regardless of any professor I was just learning all the material on my own. College was the motivation to do a ton of work, the professors just fill in the gaps.

I agree with Pengwuino. Sure you might be able to master the GRE but that's not point. Grad school is tough, buddy. There have been countless times that I just stare at a problem for days and get nowhere. Or rip about 7 pages of work and then realize I made a minor mistake halfway down page 1... Hitting the reset button on problems like that, which is often in grad school, takes a lot of discipline and motivation.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

You're not actually serious are you?? Of course the university is an intellectual stimulating place. In many ways.

First of all, there are your classmates. Each one of your classmates are interested in physics and has an opinion about it. If you want a deep discussion about physics and stuff, then your peers in class are excellent for that. If not on a university, where are you going to find like-minded individuals keen on learning? On an internet forum like this maybe, but it's hardly the same thing.

Second, there are the professors who push you to do your best. You can go talk to them about the material. You can learn a lot from them. Not every professor will be an ok conversation, but a lot of them are. Furthermore, you can even do some undergrad research with your professor. Outside university, such opportunities are really scarce (to non-existant).

The entire concept of university is built to let you learn and to ease the learning process. It IS a stimulating environment. I don't know why you are so eager to attack this view.

[1] You're not serious are you? Have you been on a college campus or a college lecture hall before? Classmates are interested in discussing physics and having deep discussions? No way, bro. You think the conversation that's usually going on between college students (even physics majors) are about deep physics? . The only way college can be intellectually stimulating is if an individual makes it that way themselves. Otherwise, college won't intellectually stimulate you in anyway. Go ask many 4.0 students why they're completely clueless about subjects they got A's in. Intellectually stimulating my **s.

[2] I find it hard to believe a professor will push you to do your best. It lies solely on you to push yourself to do your best. Unless you make yourself known to the professor, you'll even just be a name on a piece of paper to him. The professor don't care about you to the extent to push you to do your best. You have to push yourself. You are spot on with your research point though. But there are even ways around that.

[3] Learn? Ease the learning process? I can't believe what I'm reading. Do you know what learning means? Ease the learning process? How?

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

The best thing about college is the part that is not directed toward a narrow predetermined goal. It is the opportunity to meet people from all over the world with different perspectives than oneself, and discuss with them. The OP has already met a girlfriend in one semester. that is not an expensive experience that is a bargain.

Coming from Nashville Tennessee and a segregated environment, I met native South Africans in college and learned about apartheid from them, which was then still in effect. I heard memorable lectures by Malcolm X, Adlai Stevenson, and William Sloane Coffin, saw JFK at a football game, met the California boycott leader Cesar Chavez, and a pacifist from Lenin's revolution who gave me a new view of the shortsightedness of the violence of the radical 60's.

I also met the remarkable children of famous and everyday people from completely different walks of life, all on an equal footing and had my biases and ignorance challenged. Moved and changed by my surroundings, I marched in Montgomery, Ala, with MLK.

None of this was related to my training in mathematics, but was useful preparation for the rest of my life. Grad school by contrast was a narrowly focused and stressful grind. It is very difficult to know just exactly how you want to spend your life with only a high school education and exposure. Education is not expensive as they say, it is ignorance that is expensive.

You don't have to go college to experience more than half of those things. I've had girlfriends that didn't attend the school I go to.

What you're talking about is being close minded, having dogmatic ideas and that colleges push's those ideas by letting you be around others with different backgrounds, upbringings, ideas and beliefs than your own. Being open-minded isn't a hard skill to develop.

 

[Mépris]

I agree with Pengwuino. Sure you might be able to master the GRE but that's not point. Grad school is tough, buddy. There have been countless times that I just stare at a problem for days and get nowhere. Or rip about 7 pages of work and then realize I made a minor mistake halfway down page 1... Hitting the reset button on problems like that, which is often in grad school, takes a lot of discipline and motivation.

Would you rather you get everything right straight away? Wouldn't it just be *too* easy? I find what you describe much more fun than the former but hey, maybe that's just me.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Would you rather you get everything right straight away? Wouldn't it just be *too* easy? I find what you describe much more fun than the former but hey, maybe that's just me.

hm... [sarcasm] this is a really tough one...[/sarcasm]. Yes!

 

[micromass]

[1] You're not serious are you? Have you been on a college campus or a college lecture hall before? Classmates are interested in discussing physics and having deep discussions? No way, bro. You think the conversation that's usually going on between college students (even physics majors) are about deep physics? . The only way college can be intellectually stimulating is if an individual makes it that way themselves. Otherwise, college won't intellectually stimulate you in anyway. Go ask many 4.0 students why they're completely clueless about subjects they got A's in. Intellectually stimulating my **s.

Well, I guess you have very bad contact with your classmates. Not everybody is keen on discussing interesting things, but there are always some students out there who are. I know a few people who were in my class who I could talk to about math.

[2] I find it hard to believe a professor will push you to do your best. It lies solely on you to push yourself to do your best. Unless you make yourself known to the professor, you'll even just be a name on a piece of paper to him. The professor don't care about you to the extent to push you to do your best. You have to push yourself. You are spot on with your research point though. But there are even ways around that.

Not at all. Professors were always quite nice to me and we could talk about a lot. We were certainly not just a name on a piece of paper! They knew uss all personally. Some even asked us to enter a math competition and they helped us with it (in their free time!).
Admitted, not every prof will be like that, but some are!

[3] Learn? Ease the learning process? I can't believe what I'm reading. Do you know what learning means? Ease the learning process? How?

I'm saddened that you don't have the same university experience than the most of us. University is a stimulating place. Whether you go to a bad university, or whether it's you you, I don't know. Maybe you should start by being less judgmental??

 

[Mépris]

In the event I'm frustrated to no end, then perhaps I might want to but I'd rather just leave the problem as it is, if I can afford to, and come back to it on a later date. I find much more satisfaction this way.

If things were to get unbelievably too easy, I'd eventually move on to something else. I like math and physics because while I'm kinda good at 'em, I'm not good enough. They prove to be a challenge for me. If neither of them didn't, I'd have stopped a long time ago.

 

[TMFKAN64]

It's not completely unheard of for a high school and college drop out to go to graduate school. (I remember reading of such a case in the NY Times obituaries a few years ago, when a professor who had done exactly that and went on to have a successful research career had died.) However, it's sort of like saying you'd rather not enter a building through the front door, you'd rather scale the masonry like a human fly and climb in through a small ventilation duct on the roof instead. Yes, I suppose it is possible, but...

Self-study is wonderful, and I'd never discourage it, but it has definite limitations. Firstly, it is very hard, if not impossible, to truly evaluate how well you understand the material on your own. Furthermore, if you get stuck (and at some point, you *will* get stuck), it is difficult to get past this without professors or classmates to talk to.

My experience has been that universities *are* intellectually stimulating environments. Not 24/7, but over the long haul, certainly.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Well, I guess you have very bad contact with your classmates. Not everybody is keen on discussing interesting things, but there are always some students out there who are. I know a few people who were in my class who I could talk to about math.

Not at all. Professors were always quite nice to me and we could talk about a lot. We were certainly not just a name on a piece of paper! They knew uss all personally. Some even asked us to enter a math competition and they helped us with it (in their free time!).
Admitted, not every prof will be like that, but some are!

I'm saddened that you don't have the same university experience than the most of us. University is a stimulating place. Whether you go to a bad university, or whether it's you you, I don't know. Maybe you should start by being less judgmental??

[1] YOU, you, you. You're being specific to just you, man. You're the exception to the rule. But remember in science, the amount of people that's taken into consideration for research is an important factor. Your experience is not enough. Learn to look at the big picture.

[2] It comes back to you again. YOU are not enough to make some of these conclusions. Suppose you never went forward, tried to get to know your professor, your professor wouldn't have come to you and tried to get to know you. He/she doesn't care! Especially in a large lecture class. You have to make the initiative, take the first step. Goes back to what I was saying about the individual pushing him/herself. Prof's don't care about you.

[3] You don't have a clue about my university experience. So I'm judgmental because I challenge you, express my opinion? C'mon, debate my points; don't attack me.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

In the event I'm frustrated to no end, then perhaps I might want to but I'd rather just leave the problem as it is, if I can afford to, and come back to it on a later date. I find much more satisfaction this way.

If things were to get unbelievably too easy, I'd eventually move on to something else. I like math and physics because while I'm kinda good at 'em, I'm not good enough. They prove to be a challenge for me. If neither of them didn't, I'd have stopped a long time ago.

It's just your opinion / pref and that's okay. My pref / opinion is that I would have it easy and not stress out. I would breeze through the work, go hang with the guys or something than sit there going in circles for ages. .

 

[TMFKAN64]

[1] YOU, you, you. You're being specific to just you, man. You're the exception to the rule.

Actually, I think that *YOU* are the exception to the rule!

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

It's not completely unheard of for a high school and college drop out to go to graduate school. (I remember reading of such a case in the NY Times obituaries a few years ago, when a professor who had done exactly that and went on to have a successful research career had died.) However, it's sort of like saying you'd rather not enter a building through the front door, you'd rather scale the masonry like a human fly and climb in through a small ventilation duct on the roof instead. Yes, I suppose it is possible, but...

Self-study is wonderful, and I'd never discourage it, but it has definite limitations. Firstly, it is very hard, if not impossible, to truly evaluate how well you understand the material on your own. Furthermore, if you get stuck (and at some point, you *will* get stuck), it is difficult to get past this without professors or classmates to talk to.

My experience has been that universities *are* intellectually stimulating environments. Not 24/7, but over the long haul, certainly.

[1] You think OP is unaware that he's taking the harder route?

[2] He's not ruling out schooling. In-fact he's trying to get into grad school where there will be professors, classmates, etc., but the issue here is how he's going to get there. By skipping unnecessary bulls**t or...?

[3] Universities (in the U.S.) = big joke! nothing intellectually stimulating unless the individual makes it that way even then he / she is surrounded by a campus culture that teaches against him/her pursuing intellectual things

 

[Highway]

it might be easier to take some of the upper level physics classes and no get an undergrad degree, then apply that way. . .

you get the perks of not taking the "bs classes" and the benefit of formal instruction.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Actually, I think that *YOU* are the exception to the rule!

How so?

 

[Choppy]

It comes back to you again. YOU are not enough to make some of these conclusions. Suppose you never went forward, tried to get to know your professor, your professor wouldn't have come to you and tried to get to know you. He/she doesn't care! Especially in a large lecture class. You have to make the initiative, take the first step. Goes back to what I was saying about the individual pushing him/herself. Prof's don't care about you.

I care about my students.

 

[nickadams]

[3] Universities (in the U.S.) = big joke! nothing intellectually stimulating unless the individual makes it that way even then he / she is surrounded by a campus culture that teaches against him/her pursuing intellectual things

I always see you post stuff like this and it leads me to believe you go to a bad school. You can't call HYPSM, caltech, berkeley etc. big jokes.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

I always see you post stuff like this and it leads me to believe you go to a bad school.You can't call HYPSM, caltech, berkeley etc. big jokes.

I'm sorry, I'm not impressed by "names"

 

[micromass]

[1] YOU, you, you. You're being specific to just you, man. You're the exception to the rule. But remember in science, the amount of people that's taken into consideration for research is an important factor. Your experience is not enough. Learn to look at the big picture.

[2] It comes back to you again. YOU are not enough to make some of these conclusions. Suppose you never went forward, tried to get to know your professor, your professor wouldn't have come to you and tried to get to know you. He/she doesn't care! Especially in a large lecture class. You have to make the initiative, take the first step. Goes back to what I was saying about the individual pushing him/herself. Prof's don't care about you.

[3] You don't have a clue about my university experience. So I'm judgmental because I challenge you, express my opinion? C'mon, debate my points; don't attack me.

You're doing the same as me. You also aren't enough to make the conclusions you make! Your experience is also not enough! So please, stop spouting nonsense that university aren't intellectual or are a big joke. It isn't true.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

I care about my students.

If you don't mind, may I ask some questions?

[1]what level do you teach at?
[2]how big / small is your class?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm sorry, I'm not impressed by "names"

How about results? Most good universities are good universities because they produce successful alumni and produce good research.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

You're doing the same as me. You also aren't enough to make the conclusions you make! Your experience is also not enough! So please, stop spouting nonsense that university aren't intellectual or are a big joke. It isn't true.

I'm not going by experience alone. This is something I've witnessed not just at my school, with my professors, but with other students, other professors, and at other schools.

A university can only be intellectually stimulating environments if the individual decides to make it that way. The argument you guys are making is that the university rather push's the individual towards intellect because of the environment. That's not true. It's completely bogus! It's up to the individual to push themselves, learn, and pursue intellect.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm not going by experience alone. This is something I've witnessed not just at my school, with my professors, but with other students, other professors, and at other schools.

A university can only be intellectually stimulating environments if the individual decides to make it that way. The argument you guys are making is that the university rather push's the individual towards intellect because of the environment. That's not true. It's completely bogus! It's up to the individual to push themselves, learn, and pursue intellect.

Why on Earth do you think that your experience is worth more than others? Oh, because you've seen it elsewhere. I'm sorry but no. All of my university experiences (I've been to more than one) have meant that I have both encountered bad and good environments, there have been good professors that stimulate and excite, good classes full of intelligent and interested people and good students who really like to stimulate themselves and each others. On the other hand I've seen the exact opposite to that. It all depends on the people, not much else.

Good universities are good because they get results, they become famous for producing well educated alumni who go on to be successes and if they perform genuinely important and good work. There is also an element of branding I admit but you can't deny the former two points.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

How about results? Most good universities are good universities because they produce successful alumni and produce good research.

[1] Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree. Come at me again about success. Many state schools also produce MD's, engineers, lawyers, politicians, should I go on?

[2] Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

 

[micromass]

[1] Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree. Come at me again about success. Many state schools also produce MD's, engineers, lawyers, politicians, should I go on?

So MD's, engineers and lawyers aren't succesful? Or they are worthlesss degrees?? Not sure what you're getting at...

[2] Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

Indeed, good research happens everywhere. That's why universities are an exciting place! And they are intellectually stimulating to a lot of people. But not to you, I guess...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

[1] Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree. Come at me again about success. Many state schools also produce MD's, engineers, lawyers, politicians, should I go on?

Not sure what you mean by state school (hint: not everyone from this forum is from your country yet we still have universities). Also you are being very fallacious here, you are drawing the false inference from what I and others have said that you can only be successful if you got to a good university. Ridiculous. However if you look at all the alumni of a university and measure things like wealth, position, what they've done and find that the majority of people score highly it makes the university look good. Especially if you look at specifics i.e. many biologists from university X are more successful biologists than those from university Y.

[2] Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

Who said they did? Not me certainly. If a university big or small does good research they can get funding to do more, this builds up over time and eventually the reputation of that university becomes great for good reason.

 

[Evo]

[1] Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree. Come at me again about success. Many state schools also produce MD's, engineers, lawyers, politicians, should I go on?

[2] Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

You are derailing this thread with your personal grievances. No more off topic posts.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Why on Earth do you think that your experience is worth more than others? Oh, because you've seen it elsewhere. I'm sorry but no. All of my university experiences (I've been to more than one) have meant that I have both encountered bad and good environments, there have been good professors that stimulate and excite, good classes full of intelligent and interested people and good students who really like to stimulate themselves and each others. On the other hand I've seen the exact opposite to that. It all depends on the people, not much else.

Good universities are good because they get results, they become famous for producing well educated alumni who go on to be successes and if they perform genuinely important and good work. There is also an element of branding I admit but you can't deny the former two points.

[1] I bet not just in the classroom either
[2] That's what I'm getting at. The INDIVIDUAL.
[3] What's the meaning of education? Then tell me what a good education is. Then tell me what it means to be well educated. Being well educated doesn't happen in some overpriced institution.
[4] Admit it it's mostly about "bragging" rights than anything else. Everything you mentioned: success, genuinely important & good work can by seen in many people who didn't go to over-priced institutions. I'm not convinced. No human being is higher than another. To use something like the name of a school one attended to separate people, that's just wrong. I've heard what you're arguing but I stand firm on my original point: I'm not impressed by "names". Don't care if you went to Yale. You're not different from the student who went to Hudson Valley Community College.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

You are derailing this thread with your personal grievances. No more off topic posts.

Got it.

 

[SophusLies]

Would you rather you get everything right straight away? Wouldn't it just be *too* easy? I find what you describe much more fun than the former but hey, maybe that's just me.

Naaahhh. But I'm just letting the OP know that it's not only about scoring a good GRE and skipping into grad school. Even after studying hard for 4 years as an undergrad I found out very quickly that grad school is a beast.