So how fast are we actually moving?

[Brain Dwarf]

Your planet is moving at a rate of 1.17936 condules per rotation, and is in danger of wandering into intergalatic transform tube 17A - you are advised to change course immediately or you may be sturgwolled by a passing freighter, you will receive no further warnings.

 

[Integral]

How do you mark that spot?

 

[DaveC426913]

yes space is growing and everything is moving too so what
there is no fixed grid again so what
I simply made one up

BUT I still don't get why a dated Earth position at x=0 y=0 and z = 0 grid
line the x-axis with the suns motion in orbit around our galixcy's center
and y=90 degrees to x, z points as near as possible to north
wait a full year to cancel Earth orbit movement and where are we NOW
does not give a true reference frame to chart a new location for the earth
after a year has past
and a simple answer to the question of what is our speed and direction

I do understand everything else has moved to
and there is no center of the universe point
but why can't our motion be grafted
with a pick a point now and wait a year reference

OK, so you mentioned our galaxy's center. Is that what you'd like to use as your frame of reference? You could calculate our movement around the sun and the sun's movemnt through the galaxy with the galaxy as the non-rotating reference point.

Of course, it would ignore any movement of our galaxy within the cluster...



All that aside, you won't get a very useful answer. The sum of these vectors means very little. Picture a marble in a roulette wheel that is in the back of a van driving down a north-running street. You are asking for the position of the marble after ten seconds - summing the movement of the marble on the roulette wheel with the movement of the van down the road, with reference to some point outside the van. OK, so in ten seconds the marble has moved pi radians clockwise and 100 yards north, or something like 100.05 yards North-by-northwest.

 

[DaveC426913]

How do you mark that spot?

Good one, good one.

 

[ray b]

How do you mark that spot?

in your mind
anyone really think you can draw an X in space
or that there is any need to
nobodys going to meassure back to it anyway
no you just set the X Y & Z at zero and see how far away
the Earth travels in a year

I really doNOT see what's so hard to grasp here

 

[Quantum_Grid]

Ok well we have already established that we are moving at 390km/s. There are 31,557,000 (about) seconds in a year. So after one year, the Earth has moved 12,307,230,000 kilometers.

Hows that?

 

[Quantum_Grid]

or 33.7 million kilometers a day

 

[Chronos]

Well, ray, marking an 'X' in 'space' is the essence of your original argument. We argued this is a purely arbitrary [and meaningless] exercise. Sounds like you are shifting the goal posts.

 

[DaveC426913]

in your mind
anyone really think you can draw an X in space
or that there is any need to
nobodys going to meassure back to it anyway
no you just set the X Y & Z at zero and see how far away
the Earth travels in a year

I really doNOT see what's so hard to grasp here

Ray, how do you ensure that your X is not moving? If we did this for real, we'd be in orbit (around the sun, if not around the Earth) and when we dropped the X it too would be in orbit. We would have to apply a counter-force to "bring it to rest". But we don't know what "rest" is. No matter what thought experiment you devise to drop the X and bring it to rest, there is no way even in principle of making it stop without us knowing what "stop" is, and then applying forces to bring it there.

Thus is the nature of "[URL first law[/URL]. As we sail through space, we have no way of determining that we are moving except in relation to some chosen reference point.

 

[Quantum_Grid]

Ok well we have already established that we are moving at 390km/s. There are 31,557,000 (about) seconds in a year. So after one year, the Earth has moved 12,307,230,000 kilometers.

Hows that?

Isn't this the answer he is looking for? Can we not consider this matter closed? In the words of ray b, can we stop the "quibbles"

 

[Integral]

Ok well we have already established that we are moving at 390km/s. There are 31,557,000 (about) seconds in a year. So after one year, the Earth has moved 12,307,230,000 kilometers.

Hows that?

So you claim we know precisely EVERY component of the Earth's motion?

I doubt it. how well do we know the galactic motion? How about the motion of our super cluster? The idea that we can precisely locate and record the exact location of some point is space is ludicrous. It simply cannot be done.

 

[negitron]

And, of course, the correct answer is somewhere between 0 and c.

;)

 

[ray b]

Ray, how do you ensure that your X is not moving? If we did this for real, we'd be in orbit (around the sun, if not around the Earth) and when we dropped the X it too would be in orbit. We would have to apply a counter-force to "bring it to rest". But we don't know what "rest" is. No matter what thought experiment you devise to drop the X and bring it to rest, there is no way even in principle of making it stop without us knowing what "stop" is, and then applying forces to bring it there.

Thus is the nature of "[URL first law[/URL]. As we sail through space, we have no way of determining that we are moving except in relation to some chosen reference point.

well if the universe rotates that could be another speed and direction
but no I don't see a need to deorbit a big X to mark the spot
or a huge multi yard stick to measure back to it
but we do move a given amount in a year none the less

ok but is the 390kms simple addition of speeds or true vectors
and what is the direction
before the quibble gang gets going
yes I know orbits are curved
but in a one year time frame
they should be near enuff to straight
not to matter very much

 

[Quantum_Grid]

So you claim we now precisely EVERY component of the Earth's motion?

I doubt it. how well do we know the galactic motion? How about the motion of our super cluster? The idea that we can precisely locate and record the exact location of some point is space is ludicrous. It simply cannot be done.

No! I didn't claim that at all! I was referring to the mean velocity with respect to the microwave background. I think that's the best guess we can make as to our velocity, but I definitely did not say anything about precise!

 

[DaveC426913]

well if the universe rotates that could be another speed and direction

No. This is one thing that cannot be. Since there is no frame of reference external to the universe, there can be no movement or rotation of it.

but no I don't see a need to deorbit a big X to mark the spot
or a huge multi yard stick to measure back to it

:sigh: The fact that you do not see the need for things does not mean the need is not there.

but we do move a given amount in a year none the less

ok but is the 390kms simple addition of speeds or true vectors
and what is the direction
before the quibble gang gets going
yes I know orbits are curved
but in a one year time frame
they should be near enuff to straight
not to matter very much

You do realize that in a one year time frame, the Earth returns to its original location. So, the distance traveled is zero.

Thus, the only relevant movement left is the sun's movement around the galaxy. The sun is supposed to make one orbit of the galaxy in about 260 million years, so that's 360 / 260,000,000 = 1.4x10^-6 degrees.

 

[ray b]

yes the year was picked to cancel out the Earth orbit
sun moves in the galaxy
galaxy moves in the local group
local group moves too
so far more then the sun is in motion

everything else spins in the universe
so why can't the whole thing spin too
and I don't think the universe cares
if you think it cannot move
but I agree we cannot tell what it is doing
but that ain't the same as not moving

 

[DaveC426913]

yes the year was picked to cancel out the Earth orbit
sun moves in the galaxy
galaxy moves in the local group
local group moves too
so far more then the sun is in motion

everything else spins in the universe
so why can't the whole thing spin too
and I don't think the universe cares
if you think it cannot move
but I agree we cannot tell what it is doing
but that ain't the same as not moving

I don't suppose you would consider using standard punctuation and capitalization rather than iambic pentameter?

 

[negitron]

You do realize that in a one year time frame, the Earth returns to its original location. So, the distance traveled is zero.

For large values of zero, anyway.

 

[ray b]

I don't suppose you would consider using standard punctuation and capitalization rather than iambic pentameter?

I think the single most useless thing
in life is an english major
except maybe a grammar nazi

 

[DaveC426913]

I think the single most useless thing
in life is an english major
except maybe a grammar nazi

Here is the relevant bit of Forum Rules that you agreed to when you signed up:

In the interest of conveying ideas as clearly as possible, posts are required to show reasonable attention to written English communication standards. This includes the use of proper grammatical structure, punctuation, capitalization, and spelling.

 

[ray b]

No. This is one thing that cannot be. Since there is no frame of reference external to the universe, there can be no movement or rotation of it.


:sigh: The fact that you do not see the need for things does not mean the need is not there.



You do realize that in a one year time frame, the Earth returns to its original location. So, the distance traveled is zero.

Thus, the only relevant movement left is the sun's movement around the galaxy. The sun is supposed to make one orbit of the galaxy in about 260 million years, so that's 360 / 260,000,000 = 1.4x10^-6 degrees.

first not only can the univerce spin it could be in proper motion too
and while we can't tell if it is happening
that does not mean it can't happen
as many things we thought could not happen
have been later proved true

see you own second bit
we may need or want many things that have no proof
but the lack of data does not mean something is not possible

in a year the Earth does NOT return to the very same point in space/time
it's track would look more like a bent cork screw then a simple circle
that was the point of this thread
as far more then the Earth orbit around the sun and the sun's motion
are factors in the question of our speed in space

 

[russ_watters]

first not only can the univerce spin it could be in proper motion too
and while we can't tell if it is happening
that does not mean it can't happen
as many things we thought could not happen
have been later proved true
see you own second bit
we may need or want many things that have no proof
but the lack of data does not mean something is not possible

You're misunderstanding the ideas of "can" and "can't" as they relate to science. When someone says in science something "can't" be done, that generally means it is specifically forbidden by the laws of science. The way you use the word, it implies ignorance: that we don't know/don't have any information one way or the other. But that just isn't the case here.

By definition, the universe is everything there is and even if the universe is finite, there exists no possible reference for measuring the motion you suggest. It is a relatively simple matter of geometry: By definition, motion is measured between two objects. You can't measure a distance/motion in a 3d space unless you have two points to measure between in that 3d space. This hypothetical 'outside' to the universe that you are speculating about does not provide that. You're trying to drive from New York to the Moon.

You've made an assertion here, one that I'm quite certain can't be proven and is actually forbidden by the laws of physics, but that doesn't mean the burden doesn't still exist: you need to explain and substantiate how the universe could spin or be in proper motion. Just asserting it is not enough/isn't allowed.

[edit] And while we're at it, you asserted that "many things we thought could not happen have been later proved true". In context relevant to this thread, you will have quite a bit of difficulty substantiating that as well. There have not been a lot of theories in science that have been just flat wrong because the process of science makes such a thing largely impossible. In order to be a theory, an idea must already be able to explain evidence. As such, it can't be completely wrong.

For example, when GR replaced Newton's theory of gravity, it could not be said that Newton's gravity was completely wrong. It wasn't, isn't and won't ever be.

in a year the Earth does NOT return to the very same point in space/time
it's track would look more like a bent cork screw then a simple circle
that was the point of this thread
as far more then the Earth orbit around the sun and the sun's motion
are factors in the question of our speed in space

Also, you are definitely moving the goalposts here, as others have suggested. In that quote right there, you said "our speed through space". Space is what the universe is "made of". So this pseudophilosophical nonsense about the universe moving is quite another matter altogether, not at all related to "our speed in space", which, as others have said, has been quite adequately answered.

 

[ray b]

yes but at one time the Earth was ''known'' to be fixed
and all the other stuff was thought to move around the fixed earth

we learned that was not true
but not before lots of effort was put into epicycles
not to go into crystal spears or pillars to hold up the earth
or other ideas long ago dropped

who knows what the future may bring
but already there is talk of a multiverse in which our everything
is but a small part of the true system
now I said we currently can not prove any of that
but that is not the same as saying something can not ever be known

 

[Integral]

yes but at one time the Earth was ''known'' to be fixed
and all the other stuff was thought to move around the fixed earth

we learned that was not true
but not before lots of effort was put into epicycles
not to go into crystal spears or pillars to hold up the earth
or other ideas long ago dropped

These notions were not the result of modern scientific method. So they are irrelevant to this discussion. Which IS about modern scientific method.

who knows what the future may bring
but already there is talk of a multiverse in which our everything
is but a small part of the true system
now I said we currently can not prove any of that
but that is not the same as saying something can not ever be known

We can only work with what we know. Any speculation about what the future will bring is just that speculation. Note that we have rules against speculative posts on these forums. I think it is getting close to lock time for this thread.

 

[ray b]

the speculative post was post was not my post
dave posted the universe can NOT move
we have no way to know that is my point
not that it does or doesNOT but that anyone could say it canNOT
the universe has proven to be stranger then we think
so let's not set unproven limits on it
even if with current teck we can not say what's happening

what ever we now claim to know
will looks as silly as the fixed Earth in a few thousand years

I am willing to drop unproven motions
so let's get back to the unanswered question
DIRECTION on the X Y & Z plot with X on our current path and Z near north
where are we going
and how far apart are the vectors of the sun galaxy and local group's motions

 

[Integral]

Clearly you have not learned anything from this thread. There is no point in continuing.