So what is the aim of being billionaire?

[Schrodinger's Dog]

No, he's just right.

About what? If you ask me he's saying pretty much the same as me? I mean when he said you shouldn't just throw money at the poor, I suggested a number of investments which wouldn't be doing that?

If you mean he's right about loans, you'd be wrong there also, fact is if he goes round giving out high risk loans to the poor it's unlikely he's going to get his money back. If he charges high rates to cover his potential loss then he's unlikely to be any different from what is already available. Investment in the community might entail a loss to you, but a gain to others in general. If he's arguing against that and you're supporting him there, then one has to wonder exactly what your point is? See it's possible in principal to make a charitable venture that makes money for you, and a business venture that makes a loss. But the charitable side of it is in the intent, not the profit margin.

It seems to me though, I was being pulled up for suggesting people who invest their money in society beyond their own selfish needs, are better people than those who don't, which is of course absurd. Beyond that our arguments were the same.

 

[Cyrus]

About what? If you ask me he's saying pretty much the same as me? I mean when he said you shouldn't just throw money at the poor, I suggested a number of investments which wouldn't be doing that?

If you mean he's right about loans, you'd be wrong there also, fact is if he goes round giving out high risk loans to the poor it's unlikely he's going to get his money back. If he charges high rates to cover his potential loss then he's unlikely to be any different from what is already available. Investment in the community might entail a loss to you, but a gain to others in general. If he's arguing against that and you're supporting him there, then one has to wonder exactly what your point is? See it's possible in principal to make a charitable venture that makes money for you, and a business venture that makes a loss. But the charitable side of it is in the intent, not the profit margin.

It seems to me though, I was being pulled up for suggesting people who invest their money in society beyond their own selfish needs, are better people than those who don't, which is of course absurd. Beyond that our arguments were the same.

See Dr. Yunus. Poor people in 3rd world countries actually DO pay it back! They do it all the time.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

See Dr. Yunus. Poor people in 3rd world countries actually DO pay it back! They do it all the time.

Who's Dr Yinus and why does forcing countries into ever increasing debts which they can't pay back apply here? IIRC didn't they agree to wipe off the interest on some of the highest third world debts recently? Do you think offering people a service that already exists, ie loans at high interest is quite the same as building public libraries? Scholarships for the poor and so on? Or as I said is it just supplying a service that already exists? I don't see how that is going to help anyone, but give it a go when you become a billionaire.

Like your idea about education, that's something that is a little more in line with charity than just expecting to make an equal or greater return on your loans.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2004-10-14.407.4

Seems to be happening over here?

Did you know that the richest business man in the UK, actually pays virtually nothing in tax because he spends so much time moving his funds around, that he pays very little tax, and the amount he pays is more than covered by the interest on moving his finances from Swiss bank account to offshore account and so on. These are people that despite being incredibly wealthy don't even want to pay taxes to the country where much of their investment is. These are the sorts of people that get my goat. Although thankfully many people are willing to pay their due.

 

[Astronuc]

Who's Dr Yinus and why does forcing countries into ever increasing debts which they can't pay back apply here? IIRC didn't they agree to wipe off the interest on some of the highest third world debts recently? Do you think offering people a service that already exists, ie loans at high interest is quite the same as building public libraries? Scholarships for the poor and so on? Or as I said is it just supplying a service that already exists?

Muhammad Yunus and Grameen Bank won the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize (and frankly he should get the Nobel in Economics as well) "for their efforts to create economic and social development from below". http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2006/

Yunus's method involves microcredit - small loans at the local level at reasonable rates which enable local folks to develop their own businesses. It is quite the opposite of IMF and World Bank, and is way more effective.

http://www.grameen-info.org/

http://www.grameen-info.org/bank/index.html

Breaking the vicious cycle of poverty through microcredit
http://www.grameen-info.org/bank/bcycle.html

 

[ShawnD]

Education is one area I overlooked. I would set up a fund for free college education, provided the person maintains a certain GPA, say above a 3.5, with the condition that if they drop out or fall below a 3.5 GPA, they have to pay the money back so someone else can use it.

I had a similar idea when I was about 10. Trade school and university would be free if you passed, but you would pay the entire thing back if you failed.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Muhammad Yunus and Grameen Bank won the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize (and frankly he should get the Nobel in Economics as well) "for their efforts to create economic and social development from below". http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2006/

Yunus's method involves microcredit - small loans at the local level at reasonable rates which enable local folks to develop their own businesses. It is quite the opposite of IMF and World Bank, and is way more effective.

http://www.grameen-info.org/

http://www.grameen-info.org/bank/index.html

Breaking the vicious cycle of poverty through microcredit
http://www.grameen-info.org/bank/bcycle.html

Ah... Thanks Astronuc, yes that does seem a better system. I see what he means now, apologies Cyrus, not sure what you meant. Having said that though, why aren't these ideas put forward to the systems that exist now in the UN? I mean UNICEF, why aren't these voices heard?

I had a similar idea when I was about 10. Trade school and university would be free if you passed, but you would pay the entire thing back if you failed.

Yeah but what if you couldn't pay it back if you failed? If you passed, surely you'd be able to pay it back much more easily? Just asking how this dynamic works?

 

[Cyrus]

Yeah but what if you couldn't pay it back if you failed? If you passed, surely you'd be able to pay it back much more easily? Just asking how this dynamic works?

You're screwed. If your serious, you wouldn't fail. Its really that simple.

 

[ShawnD]

A
Yeah but what if you couldn't pay it back if you failed? If you passed, surely you'd be able to pay it back much more easily? Just asking how this dynamic works?

It would be handled the same way as current student loans are handled - you file for bankruptcy when you can't pay them.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

You're screwed. If your serious, you wouldn't fail. Its really that simple.

I was serious and I failed college. Not because I wasn't serious, because I couldn't afford to stay. Not everyone who is serious passes any more than everyone who isn't doesn't. You seem to have a very black and white view of reality.

Sounds like student loans are better, you only have to pay them back when you are earning. Much better to offer everyone a chance to go to University I think. Scholarships under threat sound like a step backward to me.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

It would be handled the same way as current student loans are handled - you file for bankruptcy when you can't pay them.

Student loans survive bankruptcy in most cases.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Student loans survive bankruptcy in most cases.

Hehe filing for bankruptcy when you leave University, before you start a career.

<< post edited slightly by berkeman >>

 

[cristo]

Hehe filing for bankruptcy when you leave University, before you start a career.

Yea, bankruptcy is a bit extreme! One could always consider eloping to another country for n years.. that wipes out the student loan (I think n's about 7 at the moment!)

 

[ShawnD]

Student loans survive bankruptcy in most cases.

Plan B:
1 - Kill prostitutes
2 - ?
3 - Profit


That seems a bit weird that students loans would survive bankruptcy, since they're often the highest expense. A car might set you back $20,000 but 4 years at a private university in the US costs >$100,000. In a really bad financial situation, you end up selling your assets, so the only time you'll file for bankruptcy is if your student loan really is the biggest loan you have left after everything has been sold.

 

[Cyrus]

I was serious and I failed college. Not because I wasn't serious, because I couldn't afford to stay. Not everyone who is serious passes any more than everyone who isn't doesn't. You seem to have a very black and white view of reality.

Sounds like student loans are better, you only have to pay them back when you are earning. Much better to offer everyone a chance to go to University I think. Scholarships under threat sound like a step backward to me.

No, because you would have a grant that pays for your college. So you would be attending for free. And if you are serious, then you will pass. It really is black and white.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

No, because you would have a grant that pays for your college. So you would be attending for free. And if you are serious, then you will pass. It really is black and white.

I was serious I didn't. Are you questioning my seriousitisness? College is free in the UK, University is not. There are all sorts of reasons people don't pass, having to work because you can't afford to go to college is a good reason, I couldn't afford to live and go to college, I had to drop out to find work. Illness, mental and physical. Accidentally choosing a subject to which you later realize you are unsuited. I don't think if you asked your average University student why they dropped out that not being serious is going to be the reason why 100% of students dropped out.

It's a good idea in principal, I just don't see the reason for making it conditional. I doubt the drop out rate for scholarships is particularly high anyway.

 

[Cyrus]

I was serious I didn't. Are you questioning my seriousitisness? College is free in the UK, University is not. There are all sorts of reasons people don't pass, having to work because you can't afford to go to college is a good reason, I couldn't afford to live and go to college, I had to drop out to find work. Illness, mental and physical. Accidentally choosing a subject to which you later realize you are unsuited. I don't think if you asked your average University student why they dropped out that not being serious is going to be the reason why 100% of students dropped out.

It's a good idea in principal, I just don't see the reason for making it conditional. I doubt the drop out rate for scholarships is particularly high anyway.

I think your missing my point. It would be paid for while your in school as long as your GPA is above a certain level. What does your personal analogy have to do with what I am describing?

Well, then they should not apply for my billionaire scholarship. Its only for the seriously minded.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I think your missing my point. It would be paid for while your in school as long as your GPA is above a certain level. What does your personal analogy have to do with what I am describing?

Well, then they should not apply for my billionaire scholarship. Its only for the seriously minded.

Well ok, but it still holds that people are going to be forced to drop out for reasons beyond their control. I don't see why you need the serious proviso.

 

[cristo]

Well ok, but it still holds that people are going to be forced to drop out for reasons beyond their control. I don't see why you need the serious proviso.

Well then they face the consequences of the contract that they signed up to, and pay the money back!

There seems to be a recurring theme with you expecting one party in a contract to abide by it, but the other party to be able to break it with no consequence!

 

[cristo]

What does this have to do with what were talking about?

Well, it was slightly off topic, apologies. Still, it does have some relevance in that the "billionaire scholarship" would be effectively a contract, thus by dropping out of university you would be breaking the contract, and so would have no right to complain when asked for the "scholarship" money back, regardless of the reasons.

 

[Cyrus]

That wasnt for you cirsto, I was asking SD.

Since you delted your comment SD, I will delete mine.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Well, it was slightly off topic, apologies. Still, it does have some relevance in that the "billionaire scholarship" would be effectively a contract, thus by dropping out of university you would be breaking the contract, and so would have no right to complain when asked for the "scholarship" money back, regardless of the reasons.

I don't think it's unfair if you sign a contract to give the money back if you drop out it is unfair. I think such a contract is unnecessary.

 

[Cyrus]

Its not your billion bucks, its mine. My scholarship, my rules.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Its not your billion bucks, its mine. My scholarship, my rules.

Well fair enough I'm just saying I don't think it's a good idea. But if it's "my gaff my rules", then there's not really much I can say other than it seems a bit odd.

 

[Cyrus]

I think its a fanstastic idea. If you work hard you get a free ride.

 

[DaveC426913]

I means back to front, or unusual.

It does? I've never heard it. Where would I find reference to this?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

It does? I've never heard it. Where would I find reference to this?

Er? Well it's kind of a given? But if you can't find a site that explains the term, that's kind of Irish? I'll help out. It's not something that is commonly used any more, but anyone who is English would understand the term that's a bit Irish?

 

[Moonbear]

Its not your billion bucks, its mine. My scholarship, my rules.

Indeed, you can make your rules any way you like them.

While I've never seen a scholarship with payback obligations for dropping below a certain GPA (usually the scholarship just gets cut off at that point...otherwise it might be hard for a person to continue going to school if they not only have to pay for tuition but also pay back past tuition covered under a scholarship...it would effectively force someone with a perfectly respectable 3.4 GPA to drop out), I have certainly seen grants and scholarships with payback obligations if you drop out of college. You don't hold up your part of the deal and get a degree, you pay back what someone gave you to help you get that degree so it can be used for someone else. Unless I missed somewhere something about it being paid back after graduation if someone's GPA drops, so it's more like a student loan (I see some discussion of student loans above, but haven't back tracked through all of it).

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Can I just apologise for using the term Irish, obviously this is something that isn't understood as slang in the US. Being half an Irishman myself, I wasn't meaning to convey any negative implications, any more than I would by telling an Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman joke.

Irish= not quite roight, and slightly back to front, if you see what oi mean.

Anyway, ter make it up to yers in the only way I know how:

An Englishman and an Irish man and a Scotsman go to prison for murder, and the warden being a liberal sort says, "since you're doing fifteen years, you can have a 15 year supply of whatever you want."

The Englishman says "I want a 15 year supply of prostitutes" , the Scotsman says, "well laddy I'll have a 15 year supply of yer finest whisky", and the Irishman being a smoker says "I'll have a 15 year supply of cigarettes."

Anyway 15 years later they let the prisoners out, the Englishman is somewhat bandy legged but happy, the Scotsman is drunk as a lord and more than happy. But the Irishman seems very angry, so the warden pulls him over and says: "look I gave you everything you wanted for 15 years, why are you so annoyed?" And the Irishman says "got a light?"

 

[Cyrus]

Indeed, you can make your rules any way you like them.

While I've never seen a scholarship with payback obligations for dropping below a certain GPA (usually the scholarship just gets cut off at that point...otherwise it might be hard for a person to continue going to school if they not only have to pay for tuition but also pay back past tuition covered under a scholarship...it would effectively force someone with a perfectly respectable 3.4 GPA to drop out), I have certainly seen grants and scholarships with payback obligations if you drop out of college. You don't hold up your part of the deal and get a degree, you pay back what someone gave you to help you get that degree so it can be used for someone else. Unless I missed somewhere something about it being paid back after graduation if someone's GPA drops, so it's more like a student loan (I see some discussion of student loans above, but haven't back tracked through all of it).

3.5 was just a number I pulled out of my butt. Anything below a 3.0 is a definite no no. I would probably say below a 3.2 and you just ant trying hard enough. Anywhere from 3.2 to 3.5 seems reasonable.

 

[Moonbear]

3.5 was just a number I pulled out of my butt. Anything below a 3.0 is a definite no no. I would probably say below a 3.2 and you just ant trying hard enough. Anywhere from 3.2 to 3.5 seems reasonable.

You could always have a probation period if it drops below a certain cut-off as long as it remains above another...for example, if they drop below a 3.3 but keep it above 3.0, they'll have a semester of probation to pull it back up before they lose the scholarship...that way they don't lose their scholarship for a bad semester when they tried TOO hard and bit off more classes than they could chew so they all suffered a bit, or when they get that one elective class that they thought would be easy and ends up kicking their butt.

 

[Cyrus]

Sure. The only point was to have them pay it back if they went to school and dicked around while they were there.

 

[Moonbear]

Sure. The only point was to have them pay it back if they went to school and dicked around while they were there.

Yeah...I'm just having fun finding ways to spend YOUR money.

Setting up a scholarship fund is one of those things that has always bounced around my mind of what I'd do if I finally struck it rich (or even comfortably well off enough to have enough to spare to make it worthwhile starting a scholarship fund). I always wanted to set up one that had both financial need criteria as well as high academic standards...to really help the smart kids who are too poor to go to college. I'd want it to be a full ride scholarship, so they don't have to worry about where to come up with money to pay the rest of tuition if they're really so poor that even assistance isn't enough. But, I wanted to ensure other things were included that aren't always included in scholarships and would impede the poorest of students from taking advantage of them...like including room and board, books, transportation costs (that one is rarely in there...whether it covers the bus pass to get from off-campus housing to campus, or even the airfare to get from their home to campus each term...it's horrible when you know a student is not going home for holidays and instead staying with someone they know locally because they can't afford a plane ticket home), and maybe something like $500 in discretionary funds...whether they use it for their phone bill or to get pizza delivered once in a while, or for dues to join a club on campus, etc...not so much they could go wild partying instead of studying, but enough that they don't have to completely miss all the social experiences that are part of college life too.

Might even be fun after enough years to start having an annual social where current and past recipients are invited to meet (current recipients at my expense, past recipients should be gainfully employed by then and able to attend on their own expense), which of course would also be an opportunity for fund raising to get the past recipients to give back a little to keep the fund going, and also would be an added networking opportunity for all the scholars past and present, which also is designed to increase the success of the program by helping them make professional contacts and have more successful careers of their own, which translates into more money coming back into the program in donations, etc.

 

[Cyrus]

You are forgetting that I am a billionaire. I seriously doubt the money will dry up so fast that they will need to fund raise after they finish. I could probably send the entire country to college with a billion dollars.

 

[Moonbear]

You are forgetting that I am a billionaire. I seriously doubt the money will dry up so fast that they will need to fund raise after they finish. I could probably send the entire country to college with a billion dollars.

You might want to check your math. You could fund perhaps one class going through a state university...and then you'd be the one in need of loans. Of course it'll last a lot longer funding fewer students in a given year. It all depends on how much you want to put into a scholarship fund and how it's invested. I didn't think you intended to spend the entire billion on scholarships.

 

[Cyrus]

Ok, I could fully fund 10,000 students if it costs them 100k for all four years.

HOWEVER, supermodels are expesnive. And so I can only send around 2500 through college. Sorry to all those left out, but Mrs. Klum-Cyrus wants to roll around town in the ferrari.

 

[Moonbear]

Ok, I could fully fund 10,000 students if it costs them 100k for all four years.

HOWEVER, supermodels are expesnive. And so I can only send around 2500 through college. Sorry to all those left out, but Mrs. Klum-Cyrus wants to roll around town in the ferrari.

I think Ms. Klum is already spoken for. You might have to find another super model.

 

[Cyrus]

Are you kidding me. If you had a billion dollars you could have any woman you wanted. You could pretty much do anything you wanted to.

Heres $20M-USD, she'd be like when and where.

 

[Zantra]

a million, a billion, 10 billion, doesn't make a difference:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/43884/output/print

"Americans who earn $50,000 per year are much happier than those who earn $10,000 per year," writes Gilbert, "but Americans who earn $5 million per year are not much happier than those who earn $100,000 per year."

So it's basically saying that once you get middle class, it's all icing on the cake. No more happiness. Personally, I think that falls in with Maslow's pyramid, and once you've met your basic needs, everything else is emotional and spiritual, which usually doesn't involve money. Plus, your happiness would actually decrease due to the added stress that comes with the types of jobs required to earn an upper class income, unless you inhierit it. So on average we can estimate that around $75k or so, diminishing returns starts making you wonder if the money is really worth it. Use any number but there's that point of no return somewhere in there.

As far as charity, it's simple. Giving money to people solves nothing except the short term. Setup scholarships and social programs to enable people to succeed- teach a man to fish and he'll stop whining for rich people to give him more fish, and just go out and fish himself. Give him a fish and he'll hit you up for sushi for the rest of his life. Then he'll expect it to be delivered as well

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

It does? I've never heard it. Where would I find reference to this?

Nowhere I made it up for a laugh obviously. My entire country have never used it and no one in England would get me if I said it. I tried it out on my friends and familly today. Not one of them had a problem with it. They all knew what it meant, apparently it's commonplace, although as I said it's not commonly used. Can an Englishman at least one assure me that where I live is not the only place in the UK that uses that expression about x? Because I'm not getting why "insulting" half of my own blood is offensive? Please pm me if you have an answer. Or if you have heard of the expression like everyone else I know? Because apparently no one believes me and are effectively calling me a liar. Political correctness becomes outright political stupidity.

By the way I said that that going bankrupt before you have a career was a little bit "the people who live West of Liverpool across a particular sea".

I'm eager to clear this up because I don't like being accused of being racist against myself or a liar.

 

[montoyas7940]

Nowhere I made it up for a laugh obviously. My entire country have never used it and no one in England would get me if I said it. I tried it out on my friends and familly today. Not one of them had a problem with it. They all knew what it meant, apparently it's commonplace, although as I said it's not commonly used. Can an Englishman at least one assure me that where I live is not the only place in the UK that uses that expression about x?

I am pretty dadgummed far from England, but I know the term. Have you heard of Irish Bull?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I am pretty dadgummed far from England, but I know the term. Have you heard of Irish Bull?

No what's that an Irishman who's kissed the blarney stone? I don't mind being pulled up for anything, if I am in fact guilty of it, but I obviously know ten times more about Irish culture than the people who considered the term racist? I wouldn't be surprised - knowing the sense of humour the Irish have about themselves from personal experience - if they didn't invent the term themselves. They certainly claim credit for 75% of Irish jokes. I say they, as I'm only half Irish.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Here is sense A.4 of the headword Irish in the OED

Irish in character or nature; having what are considered
Irish characteristics. spec. Used of seemingly contradictory
statements. (See also Irish hurricane s.v. sense A. 2c.)

It gives several examples that confirm the 'back to front' description, I like this one best:

'Marcus wouldn't dare to tell a lie like that unless it was true!'
'Irish,' said Pascoe.

Irish bull has an entry in wiki with some hilarious examples:

Why should we do anything for posterity? What has posterity ever done for us?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Hehe, that's pretty funny. Yeah the same thing I suppose. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't where the term comes from, ie it has an Irish derivation, they are rather famous for sending themselves up. My Grandmother was an Irish Romany Gypsy. Ever seen Snatch, they're like them but richer and more culturally snobbish. They'd probably look down on the "pikeys" in that movie. To them they would use it as racial slur, oddly enough. Don't ask me why but her familly disowned her for marrying outside of Gypsy stock. People are weird.

 

[Cyrus]

Dont shrink me you gypsy. Take my moneyyyy. I will steal your tears. Hello vanilla face, high five.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ever seen Snatch, they're like them but richer and more culturally snobbish. They'd probably look down on the "pikeys" in that movie. To them they would use it as racial slur, oddly enough. Don't ask me why but her familly disowned her for marrying outside of Gypsy stock. People are weird.

Or the TV show 'The Riches' with Minnie Driver and Eddie Izzard?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Or the TV show 'The Riches' with Minnie Driver and Eddie Izzard?

Not seen it but maybe I should...