Sonic Weapon in Cuba: Mystery of Health Attacks Deepens

[substitute materials]

Anybody have any ideas what this could be? diplomats in Cuba have reported being victims of "Health attacks", where they hear strange sounds and then experience health effects.The articles are listing hearing loss, concussion, and lingering brain damage as serious symptoms. nose bleeds, headaches, nausea etc. as well. The sounds are apparently extremely localized, into individual rooms, and even just the beds of sleeping diplomats. Super weird, although maybe all the details aren't being reported on national security grounds or whatever.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-weapon-attacks-at-us-embassy-in-cuba-deepens

What are the physics of this? Is it possible to localize sound that can do this damage, through walls, without an array of refrigerator-sized speakers? Sub-sonic? Ultra-sonic? I've seen artist's sound installations that use banks of speakers to create localized sounds such that it changes dramatically as you walk around or turn your head, but those changes are in the midst of a cacophony, not silence. Lamont Young and Maryanne Amacher have worked with these phenomena.

Is there some non-sound explanation?

 

[jedishrfu]

Perhaps some variant of directed infrasound:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound

 

[substitute materials]

Sure, so what would it take to generate and direct infrasound at the intensity that it could give someone a concussion? Are we talking about many precisely positioned speakers? Would they need to be very large? How far away could they be? Could they be in vans parked around the embassy, or underground, or in the air?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I think the 20 meter dish pointed at the embassy would be a clue...

 

[jackwhirl]

I don't want to make light of anyone's health issues, and it seems like -something- happened to at least a few people, but every time I hear about this my brain is strongly pattern matching the nocebo effect. Here explained by CGPGrey.

 

[Choppy]

If you're looking for the physics behinds this, remember that physics starts with good scientific practice.

Sure, it's fun to speculate on these kinds of things. But at best what we have are a pile of anecdotes. Anecdotes at not data.

In order to begin the process of figuring out what - if anything - these attacks were, we first need credible and consistent evidence of their effects. So far it seems that all that's coming out are a handful of reports from sources who are largely remaining anonymous about effects that are inconsistent between sources. These are all major flags to halt any kind of speculation.

 

[jackwhirl]

In order to begin the process of figuring out what - if anything - these attacks were, we first need credible and consistent evidence of their effects. So far it seems that all that's coming out are a handful of reports from sources who are largely remaining anonymous about effects that are inconsistent between sources. These are all major flags to halt any kind of speculation.

This is exactly what I would like to have said, in addition to what I had above. Thank you.

 

[substitute materials]

I agree that there's not much reliable evidence to go on here. How about the reverse approach- what are sonic weapons known to be capable of?

 

[glappkaeft]

I agree that there's not much reliable evidence to go on here. How about the reverse approach- what are sonic weapons known to be capable of?

Sonic weapons are know to be easily detectable by microphones. Which is another reason to be skeptical.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The best sonic weapon to date didn't stop Bruce Banner.

 

[russ_watters]

Sonic weapons are know to be easily detectable by microphones. Which is another reason to be skeptical.

Well, easily detectable if the microphone is on and in the right spot. My first read was one of high skepticism too, but this has now evolved into a full-fledged international incident so it looks like it's for real and serious:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/us-cuba-diplomatic-staff/index.html

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/01/04/510834.full.pdf

Beginning in late 2016, diplomats posted to the United States embassy in Cuba began to experience unexplained health problems—including ear pain, tinnitus, vertigo, and cognitive difficulties —which reportedly began after they heard strange noises in their homes or hotel rooms.
...
Although the causes of the health problems reported by embassy personnel are beyond the scope of this paper, our findings highlight the need for more rigorous research into the source of these ailments, including the potential psychogenic effects, as well as possible physiological explanations unrelated to sonic attacks.

 

[jedishrfu]

The latest news here is that some researchers believe it was crickets.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/health/cuba-sonic-attack-crickets-scli-intl/index.html

When a number of US diplomats and their families in Cuba reported hearing bizarre noises in 2016 and 2017-- and experienced a range of symptoms such as dizziness, vertigo, and pain and ringing in the ears -- US Department of State officials feared they might have fallen victim to an "acoustic attack" by sonic devices.

In October 2017, the Associated Press obtained and released the first publicly reported audio sample said to be related to the incidents. But US officials have been unable to definitively identify the source or cause of the symptoms, and Cuban officials have denied any attack.
But now, after analyzing the recording, scientists say the source of the piercing noise said to be a "sonic attack" -- described by the diplomats' as "buzzing," "grinding metal" and "piercing squeals" -- could be an echoing call of a cricket. Specifically, the Indies short-tailed cricket, Anurogryllus celerinictus.

 

[nsaspook]

The latest news here is that some researchers believe it was crickets.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/health/cuba-sonic-attack-crickets-scli-intl/index.html

If I remember correctly the Cubans said it was crickets from the very beginning.

 

[jedishrfu]

Yeah, I guess you could say they were really bugged.

Here's a cousin to the cricket:

 

[nsaspook]

Yeah, I guess you could say they were really bugged.

Here's a cousin to the cricket:

View attachment 236993

Found it.
https://qz.com/1113692/cuba-sonic-a...ets-and-cicadas-for-injuries-to-us-diplomats/

“We compared the spectrums of the sounds and evidently this common sound is very similar to the sound of a cicada,” Lt. Col. Juan Carlos Molina, a Cuban government expert, said on the television broadcast Alleged Sonic Attacks. The program also claimed sufficiently loud insect noises could “http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cuba-presents-detailed-defense-sonic-attack-charges-50752240 in situations of prolonged exposure.”

 

[berkeman]

"The program also claimed sufficiently loud insect noises could “http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cuba-presents-detailed-defense-sonic-attack-charges-50752240 in situations of prolonged exposure.”

https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/science/2016/05/03/03-what-its-like-misophonia.w700.h700.jpg

 

[jedishrfu]

Kids!

 

[davenn]

The latest news here is that some researchers believe it was crickets.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/health/cuba-sonic-attack-crickets-scli-intl/index.html

playing devil's advocate for a moment ...

wouldn't using the sound some local fauna be the idea way of masking a man-made attack ?
( not masking an attack with in "live" cricket sounds but actually using recorded cricket sounds and embedding other
sounds within)

 

[nsaspook]

playing devil's advocate for a moment ...

wouldn't using the sound some local fauna be the idea way of masking a man-made attack ?
( not masking an attack with in "live" cricket sounds but actually using recorded cricket sounds and embedding other
sounds within)

Occam's razor

 

[russ_watters]

playing devil's advocate for a moment ...

wouldn't using the sound some local fauna be the ideal way of masking a man-made attack ?
(not masking an attack with in "live" cricket sounds but actually using recorded cricket sounds and embedding other
sounds within)

Or if cricket sounds themselves are annoying, just record and play them back really loud!

Just how loud are these crickets?

 

[berkeman]

[ speculation ]

Maybe the crickets were reacting to the ultrasonic broadcast...?

[ /speculation ]

 

[russ_watters]

Occam's razor

Says what?

 

[jack476]

I think the smart money's still on a combination of food poisoning, mass hysteria, and maybe just a tiny bit of xenophobia.

 

[nsaspook]

Says what?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/01/the-real-story-behind-the-havana-embassy-mystery

Another bug in the initial sonic-weapon theory was exposed by … a bug. As the diplomats prepared to undergo a battery of tests, the Associated Press leaked a recording made in Cuba by one of the two dozen afflicted staffers and posted it on YouTube. Although the sound had been described in a number of contradictory ways, some of those who heard it experienced something like a high-pitched, high-frequency stridulation. In short, it sounded like chirping. And, in fact, once experts listened to the YouTube recording, there was an almost embarrassing revelation. What did many hear? Crickets.

Literally, crickets. Specifically, Gryllus assimilis, a.k.a. the Jamaican field cricket, also known sarcastically among bug experts as the “silent cricket.” And while Gryllus can get as loud as, say, a vacuum cleaner, it’s not noisy enough to cause deafness. Or, others argued, the sound might be cicadas. ProPublica’s groundbreaking investigation into the embassy mystery last winter quoted a biology professor named Allen Sanborn as saying that the only way a cicada could injure your hearing was if “it was shoved into your ear canal.”

By January 2018, some of the government’s own experts had ruled out a sonic attack. In an interim report, the F.B.I. revealed that it had investigated sound waves below the range of human hearing (infrasound), those we can hear (acoustic), and those above our hearing range (ultrasound). The conclusion: there was no sonic cause to the physical symptoms experienced by the diplomats.

 

[russ_watters]

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/01/the-real-story-behind-the-havana-embassy-mystery

This doesn't answer my question. I think what you are intending here is to say that if it sounds like bugs, then Occam's Razor says it is probably bugs. The problem is, I've never heard of insect sounds causing injury.

Occam's Razor isn't just searching for the simplest answer, it's searching for the simplest answer that explains the data. These reports only cover half of the issue.

And not for nothing, but I think it is a bad idea to take a dictator's opinion at face value.

 

[nsaspook]

This doesn't answer my question. I think what you are intending here is to say that if it sounds like bugs, then Occam's Razor says it is probably bugs. The problem is, I've never heard of insect sounds causing injury.

Occam's Razor isn't just searching for the simplest answer, it's searching for the simplest answer that explains the data. These reports only cover half of the issue.

And not for nothing, but I think it is a bad idea to take a dictator's opinion at face value.

Exactly, the insect sounds, man-made or natural are not the cause of injury if the audio recording are representative of what people heard. Occam's Razor is the simplest answer about bug sound sonic weapons and psychogenic symptoms are a good candidate for 'injury' from those bug sounds.

 

[russ_watters]

I think the smart money's still on a combination of food poisoning, mass hysteria, and maybe just a tiny bit of xenophobia.

Maybe, though xenophobia is not really the right word. Even if Cuba has earned non-adversary status, it is a built-in job requirement of a diplomatic mission anywhere to view their host as an adversary.

 

[russ_watters]

Exactly, the insect sounds man-made or natural are not the cause of injury if the audio recording are representative of what people heard.

How does that follow? You're skipping more steps in the logic: I need you to say what you are thinking, not leave me to guess!

Though maybe you tried:

Occam's Razor is the simplest answer about bug sound sonic weapons and psychogenic symptoms are a good candidate for 'injury' from those bug sounds.

I don't think this is a sentence.

 

[jedishrfu]

Jiminy Cricket says: That's an interesting idea!

 

[berkeman]

https://media.tenor.com/images/6b0de73920eb27eb3f8819e3ebdd6774/tenor.gif

 

[nsaspook]

How does that follow? You're skipping more steps in the logic: I need you to say what you are thinking, not leave me to guess!

Though maybe you tried:

I don't think this is a sentence.

What logic steps would those be for just natural cricket sounds? Yes, I think it was just natural cricket sounds and mostly psychogenic symptoms. The Cuban's operating some mysterious, publicly undetectable remote energy weapon that we have no counter-measures to stop is pretty far fetched to me yes.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...-embassy-don-rsquo-t-add-up-mdash-for-anyone/

 

[russ_watters]

What logic steps would those be for just natural cricket sounds? Yes, I think it was just natural cricket sounds and mostly psychogenic symptoms.

Yes, those are the two assumptions:
1. The sounds are representative.
2. The symptoms are psychogenic.

Neither of these critical assumptions were examined in the study. Nor was a third:

3. Psychogenic injuries could not have been caused by the sound.

Occam's Razor would indicate the opposite conclusion than the one you reached because the opposite conclusion involves the fewer assumptions!

 

[nsaspook]

Yes, those are the two assumptions:
1. The sounds are representative.
2. The symptoms are psychogenic.

Neither of these critical assumptions were examined in the study. Nor was a third:

3. Psychogenic injuries could not have been caused by the sound.

Occam's Razor would indicate the opposite conclusion than the one you reached because the opposite conclusion involves the fewer assumptions!

I've seen nothing that says the recorded sounds were not representative and several articles including the link on my original post that say they are.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/01/04/510834.full.pdf

United States personnel made multiple recordings of the distinctive sound and these recordings were played to embassy personnel so they would know what to listen for. The Associated Press (AP) received several of these recordings and posted one representative sample online. Recordings were sent to the U.S. Navy and FBI for analysis, and some were made available to the Cuban government. Because these recordings are the only non-medical evidence available on the “sonic health attacks” in Cuba, much attention has focused on identifying the origin

 

[russ_watters]

I've seen nothing that says the recorded sounds were not representative and several articles including the link on my original post that say they are.

They are missing a critical property: volume.

Here are the questions needing answers in this case:

1. Did any staff sustain real injuries?
2. Did the sound cause any of the injuries?
3. What is the nature of the sound?
4. What is the source of the sound?

All of these are separate questions. The recent report seeks to answer only #3, which is the least consequential of them.