Solubility of compounds in water

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the solubility of various compounds in water, particularly focusing on the dissociation of acids such as HCl and acetic acid (CH3COOH). Participants explore the reasons behind complete and partial dissociation in the context of thermodynamics, bond strength, and enthalpy changes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why stronger acids like HCl dissociate completely in water while weaker acids like acetic acid only partially dissociate, suggesting bond strength and electronegativity differences may play a role.
  • One participant explains that the bond energy between H and Cl in HCl is lower than the bond energy between H+ and O in H3O+, which may contribute to the complete dissociation of HCl.
  • Another participant discusses the stability of the conjugate bases, noting that Cl- has a full noble gas configuration, making it more stable compared to the COO- anion from acetic acid, which affects dissociation behavior.
  • Thermodynamic considerations are introduced, including the enthalpy changes associated with dissociation and solvation, suggesting that the energy required to break the HX bond is outweighed by the energy gained from solvation.
  • One participant mentions that the reverse reaction can occur, where the anion in solution can recombine with H3O+, leading to an equilibrium state that affects pH levels.
  • Entropy variations are noted as an important factor in explaining some anomalous behaviors of solutions, such as the solubility of certain salts at lower temperatures.
  • The Van't Hoff equation is referenced to explain the relationship between temperature and the equilibrium constant for dissociation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the factors influencing solubility and dissociation, with no clear consensus reached on the primary reasons or mechanisms involved. Multiple competing views remain regarding the roles of bond strength, thermodynamics, and entropy.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the interactions involved in solubility, including the need to consider enthalpy and entropy changes, as well as the stability of different ions in solution. Some assumptions about bond energies and thermodynamic principles are not fully resolved.

The_ArtofScience
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Hi

I'm not too familiar with why certain compounds tend to disassociate completely/partially in the water solvent. In one experiment from lab I remembered that HCL dissolved completely whereas CH3COOH (acetic acid) only partially dissolved. Weak acids generally don't hydrolyze completely while stronger acids do- my question here is why is that true? Does this in anyway have to do with electronegativity differences?
 
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The_ArtofScience said:
Hi

I'm not too familiar with why certain compounds tend to disassociate completely/partially in the water solvent. In one experiment from lab I remembered that HCL dissolved completely whereas CH3COOH (acetic acid) only partially dissolved. Weak acids generally don't hydrolyze completely while stronger acids do- my question here is why is that true? Does this in anyway have to do with electronegativity differences?
If the acid is HX, it has to do with the strenght of the bond between hydrogen atom and the atom X to which is bond, compared to the strenght of the bond between H+ and O in H3O+ and X- with H2O.
So, the bond energy between H and Cl in HCl is much lower than the bond of H+ and O in H3O+ plus the bond energy between X- and H2O, for example (in this case what counts more is the first, that is H+ with H2O bond energy). For other kinds of acids, analogue considerations.
 
The dissociation of the COO-H bond forms a fairly stable COO^{-} anion, so it is acidic, however when compared to the stability of, say the conjugate base of HCl, the anion Cl^{-} has a full noble gas configuration so it is much more stable and the H-Cl is therefore much easier to dissociate.

Thermodynamically
HX \leftrightharpoons^{\deltaH} H^{+} + X^{-}

The enthalpy required to break this bond should be positive, I.E. energy must be supplied to break it.

H^{+} + H_{2}O \rightarrow^{\deltaH} H_{3}O^{+}

The formation of the hydronium ion in solution will have a negative enthalpy change, it will release energy.

A further interaction is also noted, the hydronium (solvated proton) ion will not exist on its own in solution and will be surrounded by water in order to stabilize the positive charge (make less positive):

H_3O^+ + nH_2O \leftrightharpoons^{\deltaH} H_{3}O^{+}.nH_{2}O

These combined effects, along with similar water based stabilization of the X^- ion will both have negavie enthalpies. And in terms of thermodynamics the energy put into split the HX should be outweighed by the energy gained from solvation and hydronium ion production. So in theory it would seem ok to suggest that all acids would just want to go the path of thermodynamics and become completely dissociated. However the reverse reaction has an effect.

The anion in solution, if not completely stable will readily protinate to reform the acid:

X^- + H_3O^+ \leftrightharpoons HX + H_2O

Although in the instantaneous addition of the acid to water (i.e. at t=0) the reaction for dissociation of the acid will be completely forward, as soon as the concentration of conjugate base starts to increase, the reverse reaction will start to take place. And so we reach an equilibrium, where the reverse reaction happens at the same rate as the forward reaction and we, the observers, see no change in pH. The reverse reaction for a strong acid is so thermodynamically weak that it barely takes place, weras for an extremely weak acid, such as ethanoic acid, it has quite noticable stopping power on the forward reaction.

As a side note, trying to get an "acidic" gas like HCl to dissociate into a H^{+} and Cl^- in space, with no water molecules around to bind, is thermodynamically unfavourable due to the production of a "Naked" proton rather then a "Solvated" hydronium ion. This is a quite common textbook argument for why chemists tend to write H_3O^+ rather than H^+ although it taken me about 2 weeks of organic synthesis lectures to get bored of the convention and stick to the easier (yet "Technically" innacurate) H^+ notation.
 
Last edited:
Good post.
However, in general, I wouldn't omit to mention entropy variations, at least for ion solvation, it's important to explain some "anomalous" behavior of solutions, like the fact some salts dissolve better at lower temperatures.
 
I would explain that using:

ln(\frac{K_2}{K_1}) = -\frac{\Delta _r H^{\circ}}{R}(\frac{1}{T_2}-\frac{1}{T_1})

(Van't Hoff Equation)
 
AbedeuS said:
I would explain that using:

ln(\frac{K_2}{K_1}) = -\frac{\Delta _r H^{\circ}}{R}(\frac{1}{T_2}-\frac{1}{T_1})

(Van't Hoff Equation)

Yes, but you should already know that

\Delta _r H^{\circ}}\ <\ 0

and that's not so easy to understand, a priori, since you should compute the difference between solvation and lattice "dissolution" enthalpies; instead it's easier to understand that

\Delta _r S\ <\ 0

(at least, it's easier to me) then, from the fact that at equilibrium

\Delta _r G\ =\ 0

we have

\Delta _r H\ =\ T\Delta _r S\ <\ 0.
 
Ah cool, didn't see it like that :D
 

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