Solve HCP Packing C/A Ratio: Geometry & 1.67 Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the ideal c/a ratio for hexagonal close packing (hcp) geometry. Participants explore the geometric relationships between the dimensions involved in hcp packing, specifically questioning why the ratio does not simplify to c/2 = a/2 and how the value of 1.67 is derived.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the relationship between c and a in hcp packing, expressing confusion over the geometry and the derivation of the ratio.
  • Another participant explains that the c-direction includes an additional layer of atoms, affecting the packing efficiency compared to the a-direction, which is the closest-packing direction.
  • A further explanation details how the positions of atoms in the middle plane relate to the centroids of triangles formed by atoms in the basal plane, emphasizing symmetry arguments.
  • Mathematical relationships are proposed, including the use of equilateral triangle properties and Pythagorean theorem to derive the distances involved in the packing structure.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the geometric relationships in hcp packing, with some agreeing on the complexity of the problem while others remain uncertain about specific comparisons between dimensions.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the geometry and relationships between dimensions may be missing, and the discussion does not resolve all mathematical steps or clarify the derivation of the ratio fully.

benndamann33
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I'm trying to solve for the ideal c/a ratio of hcp packing. why doesn't c/2 =a/2, looks like they pass through the same amoutn of radius's so I'm not sure the geometry to use. Used this pic http://www.engr.ku.edu/~rhale/ae510/lecture2/sld013.htm but it is more confusing to me how 1.67 comes out. Help please?
 
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Look at the middle picture in the link you provided.

In the c-direction, there is an extra layer of atoms (triangle) between the top and bottom layers (hexagonal). The a-length is the side of the hexagon, but also the distance among adjacent atoms in the 'basal' plane. The dimension 'a' is in the closest-packing direction. The packing is less efficient in the c-direction.
 
I understand what you're saying about the picutre now, but I don't understand what you're using to compare C and A. I know where a is and i know where c is but i don't know the other length of triangle built between them, so i'ts unclear to me as to what the link is between their length
Ben
 
It's not obvious.

The trick is in realizing that the middle plane of atoms occupy positions directly above the centroids of the triangles in the base plane. This follows directly from a symmetry argument.

1. Each basal plane has nearest neighbor atoms making equilateral triangles. So, a=2R (where R is the sphere radius).

2. Each atom at height c/2 above the basal plane is positioned directly above the centroid of the triangles in the base plane. For an equilatreral triangle, the distance from a vertex to the centroid is two-thirds the length of the median, and is hence [itex](2/3)*(a\sqrt{3}/2) = a/\sqrt{3}[/itex].

3. Each atom in the base plane has a nearest neighbor in this middle plane. So, the distance from the corner atom in the base plane to the nearby atom in the mid-plane is 2R.

4. This distance can also be calculated from Pythagoras, giving:
[tex]4R^2 = a^2 = (a/\sqrt{3})^2 + (c/2)^2[/tex]

That should get you home.
 
thank you I was feeling like an idiot that I couldn't girue this out, I'm glad it doesn't appear to really be a trivial process. I appreciate the help,
Ben
 

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