News Something's gotta give - Gasoline Prices

[vanesch]

Oh, c'mon! $7000 a barrel? Lame. Nuclear cars will be on the road before we see $7000 a barrel.

Ok, I took some liberty with my estimations

 

[MaxS]

Here's my thoughts:

In the US the DMV constantly tells you "Driving is a privelage not a right."

Well, on that basis I say we tack on a 3 dollar a gallon gas tax. That 3 dollars will be used SOLELY to fund our ailing public transportation system.

That will create an incentive for people not only to carpool if they insist on driving but also to use public transport, taking a lot of the load off our roadways.

Finally, I sometimes wonder what would happen if there were a massive gas boycott, sort of like the bus boycott led by MLK JR. in the South.

 

[Astronuc]

We have the technology to puwer cars from U-238 as we speek. We have mines for U. We have labs to refine U-238. All that aside U is not a commodity and oil wasn't a commodity until the turn of the century.

Say what!?

U is a commodity, albeit a very special commodity in a rather limited market.

U-238 is not fissile, U-235 is. U-238 can be converted to Pu-239, which is also fissile.

It is impractical to build a small reactor to power an automobile because the critical size is too great for low enrichment (current limit on commerical fuel is 5% U-235). Mobile reactors for military use are about the size of large car or small truck. Then there is the waste issue, I would not want the garage down the street being responsible for the disposal.

Back to reactor size - a compact reactor would require weapons grade enrichments. I imagine terrorists would be stealing cars to make nuclear weapons.

 

[Skyhunter]

Say what!?

U is a commodity, albeit a very special commodity in a rather limited market.

U-238 is not fissile, U-235 is. U-238 can be converted to Pu-239, which is also fissile.

It is impractical to build a small reactor to power an automobile because the critical size is too great for low enrichment (current limit on commerical fuel is 5% U-235). Mobile reactors for military use are about the size of large car or small truck. Then there is the waste issue, I would not want the garage down the street being responsible for the disposal.

Back to reactor size - a compact reactor would require weapons grade enrichments. I imagine terrorists would be stealing cars to make nuclear weapons.

Brilliant observation Astronuc.

 

[1+1=1]

I feel that "only the strong survive" applies in this gas mess. If you can afford gas, you will buy it, no matter how much it is per gallon. If you cannot afford, don't buy it. The people who have the SUV will ultimately buy the gas because of these two reasons (in my eyes): 1. They need the gas for the vehicle. 2. They can afford it. Don't push the blame on the SUV owner, they need gas just as much as everyone else.

So I dumped $47.00 in my tank and I only got to half. The feeling of driving something that big and feeling safe is worth every penny of gas. Riding in the comfort also makes up for it.

 

[edward]

The problems were caused by stupid people that were afraid they wouldn't get gas, so they stopped and filled up once a day. This caused others to panic and everyone would stop and fill up, causing long lines at the pump.

Oh so you were there then? I was there and it was the exception for someone to wait in a gas line for one to two hours just to top off their tank.

There were no announcements of any kind as to when and where gas would be available. People had to drive around, wasting gas, to try and find a station that had their pumps unbarricaded, then get in line wait and wait and wait.

Tanker truck deliveries to stations were usually done in the middle of the night, because when people saw daytime deliveries the stations were overwhelmed. A lot of stations would open only one pump, so that they could more easily manage traffic in and out of the property.

There were no self service stations then. Gas station attendants pumped the gas. To avoid confrontations, as soon as the stations underground tanks started to run low, most stations were quickly barricaded by employees.

Imagine waiting in a gas line for nearly an hour, only to have the station management pull barricades in front of the pumps just before it was your turn.

With the road rage mentality that Americans have recently developed, a situation anything close to the Arab oil embargo, will potentially be very violent.
I cannot imagine the current generation of spoiled, impatient, hotheads having a barricade pulled in front of them in a similar situation.

High prices are one thing, no gas available is quite another.
Several posters have mentioned that this is only temporary and hopefully that is true. On the other hand, temporary, is what we were told in 1973. And it was only temporary if you call two years temporary. It will possibly be months before the gulf oil and gas supply resumes to full capacity. Most of the price increases this week have been plain old price gouging.

 

[edward]

So I dumped $47.00 in my tank and I only got to half. The feeling of driving something that big and feeling safe is worth every penny of gas. Riding in the comfort also makes up for it.

I am sure the oil companies appreciate your support. What will you do when that amount becomes $147.00 for that half tank of gas.

Being safe and feeling safe are two different animals. Pickups and SUV's have the highest death rate in roll overs.

 

[Evo]

Oh so you were there then? I was there and it was the exception for someone to wait in a gas line for one to two hours just to top off their tank.

Yes, I was there and that's all people did, I'd be behind people getting 3-4 gallons of gas each. If people hadn't panicked and started acting crazy, the lines would not have formed. You didn't have self service? We did. I lived in Houston, TX at the time.

 

[edward]

Yes, I was there and that's all people did, I'd be behind people getting 3-4 gallons of gas each. If people hadn't panicked and started acting crazy, the lines would not have formed. You didn't have self service? We did. I lived in Houston, TX at the time.

There were a few self service stations, but most were the old fashioned full service stations. (Arizona has always been a bit backward) I was lucky that I could slip into the back of the station where I always had my oil changes done, and the owner would always let me have gas.

Talking to him is how I learned a lot about the situation. If your gas gage was not under half full, you didn't get any gas. All of the local, Phoenix, station owners used this policy starting several months into the problem. Perhaps they should have done it nationwide.

 

[Art]

Out of interest what is the average mileage per annum for drivers in the US. In the UK it's ~12,000 miles so I am interested to see if the higher fuel prices in the UK does actually have an impact on car usage?

 

[Grogs]

Out of interest what is the average mileage per annum for drivers in the US. In the UK it's ~12,000 miles so I am interested to see if the higher fuel prices in the UK does actually have an impact on car usage?

Close to the same. 12,242 miles/vehicle in 2003.

All the data you ever wanted to know about U.S. Driving statistics is here:

http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2005/html/table_automobile_profile.html

 

[Art]

Close to the same. 12,242 miles/vehicle in 2003.

All the data you ever wanted to know about U.S. Driving statistics is here:

http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2005/html/table_automobile_profile.html

Thanks Grogs, Seems higher fuel prices does nothing to reduce mileage and so the reasons given for the high taxes in europe are simply a righteous sounding excuse for screwing motorists.

 

[edward]

Thanks Grogs, Seems higher fuel prices does nothing to reduce mileage and so the reasons given for the high taxes in europe are simply a righteous sounding excuse for screwing motorists.

How many vehicles does the average U/K family own??

The statistics show that the many American families have at least two or more vehicles. I found a DOE site that stated that the average miles driven per family is 21,000. But that info is from 1994.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/rtecs/chapter3.html

 

[Grogs]

How many vehicles does the average U/K family own??

The statistics show that the many American families have at least two or more vehicles. I found a DOE site that stated that the average miles driven per family is 21,000. But that info is from 1994.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/rtecs/chapter3.html

Oops, you're right. That site doesn't give per driver stats explicitly. 12,242 is per vehicle. You can do the math and get the per driver though. 2.68 Trillion vehicle miles divided by 196 Million licensed drivers gives about 13,600 miles per driver. It may be a little high (I believe it includes long haul truckers), but it's still fairly close to the miles/vehicle stat.

 

[edward]

I just love this.

BAGHDAD, Iraq - While Americans are shelling out record prices for fuel, Iraqis pay only about 5 cents a gallon for gasoline - a benefit of hundreds of millions of dollars subsidies bankrolled by American taxpayers.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0606-04.htm

 

[Art]

Oops, you're right. That site doesn't give per driver stats explicitly. 12,242 is per vehicle. You can do the math and get the per driver though. 2.68 Trillion vehicle miles divided by 196 Million licensed drivers gives about 13,600 miles per driver. It may be a little high (I believe it includes long haul truckers), but it's still fairly close to the miles/vehicle stat.

The 12,000 mpa I quoted originally were per vehicle and vehicle ownership in the UK would be the same as the US 2 - 3 per family so the figures are comparable.

 

[vanesch]

Oh, c'mon! $7000 a barrel? Lame. Nuclear cars will be on the road before we see $7000 a barrel.

Do you think it is reasonable, from now on, to have a 10% increase per year of the oil price ?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Thanks Grogs, Seems higher fuel prices does nothing to reduce mileage and so the reasons given for the high taxes in europe are simply a righteous sounding excuse for screwing motorists.

Here in CA they raised taxes on Gasoline a while back as part of their plan to get people to use less gasoline and car pool more often. It worked. The problem was that because people started driving less and car pooling more they weren't making as much money in taxes any more. So now they want to start taxing milage as well. They actually want to tax us for every mile we drive.

 

[Manchot]

BAGHDAD, Iraq - While Americans are shelling out record prices for fuel, Iraqis pay only about 5 cents a gallon for gasoline - a benefit of hundreds of millions of dollars subsidies bankrolled by American taxpayers.

It seems that what they're trying to do is make people happy by subsidizing the Iraqis' gas costs. Apparently, it has created a car bubble of sorts, where cars are becoming extremely plentiful. Unfortunately, it seems that we've dug ourselves into a pretty big hole here: when the subsidies stop, people will get angry.

 

[Evo]

I think there should be more telecommuting, There is no reason why I can't do my current job from my home. I work on a computer all day, it doesn't matter where I am. I was allowed to work at home for 13 years, then the new VP decided she wanted to see everyone sitting at a desk under her control and made everyone come into the office everyday. It's nonsense. I didn't need to commute 70 miles every day to sit at a computer. (I quit, btw)

They could give companies a tax break as an incentive to set people up as remote workers. There is just no sense to drive to an office if you do not have to physically work with people or equipment there. Millions of people could work in a home office.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I think there should be more telecommuting

But then they'll tax our long distance minutes!

 

[champ2823]

I think there should be more telecommuting, There is no reason why I can't do my current job from my home. I work on a computer all day, it doesn't matter where I am. I was allowed to work at home for 13 years, then the new VP decided she wanted to see everyone sitting at a desk under her control and made everyone come into the office everyday. It's nonsense. I didn't need to commute 70 miles every day to sit at a computer. (I quit, btw)

They could give companies a tax break as an incentive to set people up as remote workers. There is just no sense to drive to an office if you do not have to physically work with people or equipment there. Millions of people could work in a home office.

Damn straight!

I just read the article from Dec 10, 2003 from the San Francisco Chronicle...Seems we sell/sold gas (err...taxpayers) to Iraqi civilians for 5 to 15 cents a gallon. Halliburton, who has the contract, charges us $2.64 a gallon. Do I hear Cheney laughing all the way from D.C?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2003/12/10/MNGVD3JV8E1.DTL

 

[BobG]

I think there should be more telecommuting, There is no reason why I can't do my current job from my home. I work on a computer all day, it doesn't matter where I am. I was allowed to work at home for 13 years, then the new VP decided she wanted to see everyone sitting at a desk under her control and made everyone come into the office everyday. It's nonsense. I didn't need to commute 70 miles every day to sit at a computer. (I quit, btw)

They could give companies a tax break as an incentive to set people up as remote workers. There is just no sense to drive to an office if you do not have to physically work with people or equipment there. Millions of people could work in a home office.

I would like that a lot. I'd say I could do the same thing at home that I do at work maybe as much as 25% of the time. We already E-Mail work home or put it on a thumb drive when particularly bad weather is expected. Working at home by the fire place on a snowy day is pretty nice.

 

[Evo]

It just makes so much more sense.

When my kids were small, if the school called because they were sick, I could be there in 5 minutes, take them home, get them settled in and within an hour, tops, be working again, with them in bed. Because I worked at home, I could make that hour up during the time I would normally be driving home.

If I worked at an office, I would have to take the rest of the day off. And if they were sick the next day, I'd have to take that day off too. And it would all be lost time.

There is so much that can be done online. I can video conferencing with co-workers. We can do web colaborations where we can all work on projects together, real time, sharing and manipulating documents online as if we were in a room together. Unless I need to physically touch another person, I can do anything remotely that I would do in an office.

 

[loseyourname]

Here in CA they raised taxes on Gasoline a while back as part of their plan to get people to use less gasoline and car pool more often. It worked. The problem was that because people started driving less and car pooling more they weren't making as much money in taxes any more. So now they want to start taxing milage as well. They actually want to tax us for every mile we drive.

This recalls to mind the words of George Harrison:

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet

 

[Skyhunter]

It just makes so much more sense.

When my kids were small, if the school called because they were sick, I could be there in 5 minutes, take them home, get them settled in and within an hour, tops, be working again, with them in bed. Because I worked at home, I could make that hour up during the time I would normally be driving home.

If I worked at an office, I would have to take the rest of the day off. And if they were sick the next day, I'd have to take that day off too. And it would all be lost time.

There is so much that can be done online. I can video conferencing with co-workers. We can do web colaborations where we can all work on projects together, real time, sharing and manipulating documents online as if we were in a room together. Unless I need to physically touch another person, I can do anything remotely that I would do in an office.

In the beginning of the micro computer revolution I worked as a consultant. One of the companies I worked for hired me full time to develop and maintain an in-house information system. When I was pounding code I insisted that I work at home, I had PCAnywhere installed and 9600 baud modems so I could usually handle any problems that might arise while I was not there.

The owner of the company insisted that I work at the office, which was a high stress environment. I refused. When he felt I was no longer indespensible he insisted, so I quit.

He was not happy when he had to pay me consultant fees whenever he had a problem.

I did train someone for him. I was also the one who kept insisting that the company would suffer if anything happened to me, since I was the only person who understood the system.

It all comes down to trust, even though I always delivered the product, and he was always happy with the results, he just couldn't trust me to work at home.

Oops did we just hijack this thread?

 

[Astronuc]

Iran Offers Oil to U.S. in Katrina Gesture

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran - Iran will send the United States 20 million barrels of crude oil to help it overcome the devastation of Hurricane Katrina if Washington waives trade sanctions, a senior Iranian oil official said.

In a gesture that mirrors American aid offers after a devastating 2003 earthquake in Iran, Tehran's envoy to the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries said his government would ship up to 20 million barrels of oil to the United States, state radio reported late Tuesday.

"If U.S. sanctions are lifted, Iran is prepared to send that quantity of oil to America," the radio quoted Hossein Kazempour as saying.

When asked about that report in Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said, "No, we haven't received any direct contact from the Iranian government with an offer.

There were no signs that the U.S. policy toward Iran was about to change. Last week the Iranian Foreign Ministry offered to send relief supplies to the American Red Cross; Iranian newspapers reported that no response had been received.

Iran's offers reciprocates the goodwill that the United States displayed after an earthquake flattened the southeastern Iranian city of Bam in 2003, killing more than 26,000 people. The United States flew in emergency supplies, which were gratefully unloaded at an Iranian airport.

http://

 

[SOS2008]

If this is true, it shows that what Iran really wants is better relations with the U.S. -- That is what they keep leveraging for. If they are offering an olive branch first, and what a great opportunity!

 

[BobG]

If this is true, it shows that what Iran really wants is better relations with the U.S. -- That is what they keep leveraging for. If they are offering an olive branch first, and what a great opportunity!

It is true that Iran wants better relations with the US. This particular offer of assistance isn't without strings though. They tied the oil to removal of sanctions.

Iran wants better trade ties with other countries and the sanctions on them hinder that. They also want to come to the table as a power, which is why they aren't very willing to cave on their nuclear program. Which has more priority to them is up in the air.

Politically, if I were them, I would have offered the oil with no strings attached and prayed the US would accept it. Later on, I would have publicly brought up the fact that they came to US aid while arguing to have the sanctions removed.

 

[SOS2008]

It is true that Iran wants better relations with the US. This particular offer of assistance isn't without strings though. They tied the oil to removal of sanctions.

Iran wants better trade ties with other countries and the sanctions on them hinder that. They also want to come to the table as a power, which is why they aren't very willing to cave on their nuclear program. Which has more priority to them is up in the air.

Politically, if I were them, I would have offered the oil with no strings attached and prayed the US would accept it. Later on, I would have publicly brought up the fact that they came to US aid while arguing to have the sanctions removed.

So what if the sanctions were removed and Iran was allowed to come back to the International table? I think it would help, not hurt the directions of things even before this offer--I believe Iran would become a more moderate state if the U.S. would renew relations. And of course the U.S. could really use the oil, though maybe U.S. oil companies/Bush cronies would prefer excuses to gouge?

 

[Art]

So what if the sanctions were removed and Iran was allowed to come back to the International table? I think it would help, not hurt the directions of things even before this offer--I believe Iran would become a more moderate state if the U.S. would renew relations. And of course the U.S. could really use the oil, though maybe U.S. oil companies/Bush cronies would prefer excuses to gouge?

The sanctions on Iran are US sanctions only not UN. They specifically bar US petroleum companies from importing Iranian oil. This ban would have to be lifted for Iran to ship oil to the U.S. Bush eased sanctions temporarily (for 90 days) in the past to allow non-profit organisations and individuals to send aid to Iran after the Bam earthquake, presumably the Iranians are asking for the same again so they can reciprocate.

Edit: This is more a response to Bob's comments than yours SOS.

 

[Astronuc]

I heard this morning that Natural Gas prices will increase yet again. The Gulf region accounts for 20% of production and only 40% has been restored. Gas prices have been moving up since last year - almost doubling.

http://www.oilnergy.com/1gnymex.htm

Home heating oil and gasoline have almost doubled.

The price of fuel has increased such that many governments and school districts will see an increase in transportation cost - as will many workers who drive to work.

The major airlines have been hit hard by fuel costs. Delta is struggling to avoid bankruptcy, but may be forced into by the end of the year - despite selling off its 767's and reducing service in Cincinnati.

It was unwise for the Bush administration and Congress to subsidize SUV's and not push for higher fuel efficiencies.

There is already discussion that gasoline will likely stay above $3.00/gallon in the forseeable future.

If the cost of energy remains high - there is a concern about inflation - meaning higher interest rates are possible. Local, state and federal governments are also faced with higher costs - so local and state governments may have to raise taxes, and the federal government as well or face greater deficits.

Higher interest rates and reduced consumption of consumer goods will produce another recession, and now 'global recession' is being mentioned in many quarters.

 

[2CentsWorth]

It was unwise for the Bush administration and Congress to subsidize SUV's and not push for higher fuel efficiencies.

Ford and Toyota recalls are mostly gas guzzling trucks and SUVs. Wouldn't it be nice if they just took these off the market completely? I can't imagine anyone being so stupid as to buy a vehicle now that is not fuel efficient, but stupidity seems to prevail in this country.

If the cost of energy remains high - there is a concern about inflation - meaning higher interest rates are possible. ...Higher interest rates and reduced consumption of consumer goods will produce another recession, and now 'global recession' is being mentioned in many quarters.

I just read that because of Katrina the feds may hold off on rate hikes a little longer.

 

[TRCSF]

Ford and Toyota recalls are mostly gas guzzling trucks and SUVs. Wouldn't it be nice if they just took these off the market completely? I can't imagine anyone being so stupid as to buy a vehicle now that is not fuel efficient, but stupidity seems to prevail in this country.
I just read that because of Katrina the feds may hold off on rate hikes a little longer.

The recalls were of SUVs, but not because of other issues, a problem with the power steering for the Toyota SUVs.

As for getting SUVs off the street, I think the public is taking care of that themselves. From what I've heard, SUV sales have plummeted. People are trying to sell their used SUVs and are unable to.

Rumors are of Ford and GM declaring bankruptcy. Sounds like they made the same mistakes of the seventies- trying to sell gas-guzzling behemoths when there's high gas prices.

 

[Skyhunter]

I just read that because of Katrina the feds may hold off on rate hikes a little longer.

Mortgage rates actually fell 1/2 a percent after Katrina hit. I have a friend buying the house she lives in and her rate went from 3.75 to 3.25 right after the hurricane.

 

[Skyhunter]

Rumors are of Ford and GM declaring bankruptcy. Sounds like they made the same mistakes of the seventies- trying to sell gas-guzzling behemoths when there's high gas prices.

I suppose another tax payer bailout is in the works. I sure hope our grandchildren are industrious. They are going to have one hell of a debt to pay off!

 

[BobG]

So the solution is to release oil from the US strategic reserve, receive oil from other countries to supplement our normal supply.

How well has it worked? The price of crude is going downward and the price at the pump is still going up. http://slate.msn.com/id/2125900/?nav=tap3 where the price difference comes from.