Space in Atoms: Fusing 2 Together - What Happens?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of what happens to the space within atoms when they fuse, particularly in the context of fusion occurring in the sun's core. Participants explore the implications of atomic structure, density, and the nature of fusion, touching on theoretical and conceptual aspects of atomic and nuclear physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the new atom formed from fusion is larger or if the space between nuclei and electrons remains unchanged, suggesting that some space may disappear.
  • One participant proposes that the volume of the sun would increase due to the loss of one atom during fusion, potentially increasing its density.
  • Another participant clarifies that it is the atoms that fuse, not just protons, and discusses the implications of atomic size when considering fusion.
  • There is a discussion about the size of oxygen compared to hydrogen, with one participant noting that oxygen has more electrons in higher orbitals, affecting its size.
  • Some participants mention that the radius of an atom is influenced by its electron shells and atomic number, referencing diagrams of atomic radii.
  • One participant corrects a previous claim about iron fusion, stating that elements heavier than iron require energy to fuse rather than releasing it.
  • Another participant emphasizes that fusion in stars involves a plasma state, where the concept of "space" may not apply in the same way as in neutral atoms.
  • There is a call for clarification on what is meant by "space" in the context of fusion, distinguishing between the space between electrons and nuclei and the actual structure of the atom.
  • One participant notes that the fusion process involves complex interactions between forces and energy levels, complicating the understanding of atomic size changes.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about the density of heavier nuclei compared to lighter ones, citing conflicting factors such as electrostatic repulsion and strong quark confinement.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of fusion and the implications for atomic size and density. There is no consensus on the specific outcomes of fusion regarding space within atoms, and multiple competing perspectives remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on definitions of "space" and the complexities of nuclear interactions, which are not fully resolved in the discussion. Additionally, the effects of temperature and plasma states on atomic structure are acknowledged but not conclusively addressed.

vibjwb
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What happens to the space in two atoms that fuse together?
Fusion takes place inside the sun’s core from the protons of two atoms fusing together.
Is the new atom bigger or has the space between the nucleuses and the electrons remained the same and some space disappears?
 
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I would think you would basically lose one atom of volume so the sun would physically be denser by volume overall.

However you have to remember that at the core of the sun the reason they are fusing is because the densities are so extreme as well as their kinetic energy from being so hot, but there should still be space being lost.
 
vibjwb said:
What happens to the space in two atoms that fuse together?
Fusion takes place inside the sun’s core from the protons of two atoms fusing together.
Is the new atom bigger or has the space between the nucleuses and the electrons remained the same and some space disappears?

So to begin no its not the protons that are fusing, its two atoms that are fusing, just thought i should clarify... Second, I think that If the outer layer of an atom could be though of as a ball if you put two balls together you will see that you can't just lose space, they will become a ball with twice the volume. I don't know If you have ever seen an H2O molecule in a science book or something but if you notice the Hydrogen atoms are very small compared to Oxygen atoms. If in fact space was lost inside of an atom when it was fused together then you will see that the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms should be the same size... Note that Oxygen was made by fusion, just like all other elements other than Hydrogen.
 
Oxygen is larger because ithas more electrons in higher orbitals so you are going to lose thenet difference between the 2 fused atoms. I was picturing 2 hydrogen atoms combining to form helium which still uses the first orbital but any element below iron can fuse
 
The radius of an atom is largely dependent on its electron shells and how full they are in addition to the obvious one of atomic number.

Here are a couple of diagrams showing various radii of atoms as a function of their atomic number.
Note that in most definitely not a smooth curve from small to large. (The top chart reads from left to right then top to bottom, just like a book.) The sawtooth diagram at the bottom shows this very well.

http://www.avon-chemistry.com/p_table_atomic_rad.jpg
http://www.humboldt.edu/~rap1/ChemSupp/Plots/Radii_Per.gif

Google or Wiki "atomic radii" for a more in-depth explanation as to how the radius changes with the element.
 
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loreak said:
Oxygen is larger because ithas more electrons in higher orbitals so you are going to lose thenet difference between the 2 fused atoms. I was picturing 2 hydrogen atoms combining to form helium which still uses the first orbital but any element below iron can fuse

Never mind i was wrong about that, But to correct you in one fact, Iron can fuse but the only problem is that anything higher and including iron, when fused actually takes energy instead of giving off energy. It wouldn't make sense why we have elements bigger than Iron if anything higher than Iron could not be fused together
 
Well we were talking about fusion at the center of a star during normal behavior so Iron does not fuse specifically due to the reason you stated, all elements above that are created during more energetic events such as supernova. I wasn't saying it was impossible
 
We are talking about the sun with a core temperature of 10^6 K; photons of temperature any higher than about 3000 K are energetic enough to cause dissociation of electrons in hydrogen, so we aren't working with atoms but with a plasma of subatomic particles and highly energetic photons.

I think that sort of renders the question of "space" irrelevant since all the space in atom comes from the relatively large separation between electrons and nuclei.
 
I agree with Mikey on this. The term "space" needs to be clarified as space between the electrons and nuclei, or space taken up by the actual guts of the atom (particle, whatever).
 
  • #10
yeah I didnt think about that, the sun is a plasma so its simply free floating nuclei coalescing.
 
  • #11
Post #8 has the right idea...the original question of "atoms" in fusion is incorrect since it is nucleii that fuse, not atoms.

The fusion of lighter nuclei, which creates heavier nucleii and free neutrons also complicates comparisons. The strong force, electromagnetic force, binding energy and energy levels operate in complex ways. In addition, some mass is actually converted to energy (is it maybe a few percent?) so I don't know how all those things net out. I am unsure if quark spacing within neutrons and protons always remains fixed; I suspect so.
 
  • #12
I don't know exactly if heavier nuclei are more dense than lighter ones.. you have some conflicting terms due to electrostatic repulsion, strong quark confinement, etc., seems way beyond what I have learnt. In any case I think the size of any change in radius of the nuclei is totally and utterly negligable compared to their mean free path, of even perhaps their de Broglie wavelength!?
 

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