Spacetime is homogeneous and isotropic

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the assumptions of homogeneity and isotropy in spacetime as they relate to the Special Theory of Relativity. Participants explore the implications of these assumptions on the laws of physics and the behavior of light in different inertial frames.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the necessity of assuming homogeneity and isotropy, asking if Special Relativity would fail without these assumptions.
  • Another participant suggests that these assumptions are consistent with observations of the universe's behavior.
  • Concerns are raised about direction-dependent effects if spacetime is not isotropic, questioning how the principle of relativity could hold if laws of physics vary with direction.
  • Homogeneity is similarly questioned, with a participant arguing that if laws depend on location, the principle of relativity cannot be maintained across different inertial frames.
  • Some participants speculate that without isotropy and homogeneity, one might end up with a direction-dependent one-way speed of light, complicating the mathematics but potentially yielding the same measurable outcomes.
  • There is a suggestion that inhomogeneities could affect the one-way speed of light without impacting the two-way speed, depending on the choice of coordinates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of not assuming homogeneity and isotropy. There is no consensus on whether these assumptions are essential for the validity of Special Relativity or on the effects of potential violations of these assumptions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexities introduced by direction-dependent effects and the potential for different physical laws in varying locations and orientations, but do not resolve these issues.

BookWei
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
I read the Special Theory of Relativity in Jackson's textbook, Classical Electrodynamics 3rd edition.
Consider the wave front reaches a point ##(x,y,z)## in the frame ##K## at a time t given by the equation,
$$c^{2}t^{2}-(x^{2}+y^{2}+z^{2})=0 --- (1)$$
Similarly, in the frame ##K^{'}## the wave front is specified by
$$c^{2}(t')^{2}-[(x')^{2}+(y')^{2}+(z')^{2}]=0 --- (2)$$
With the assumption that spacetime is homogeneous and isotropic, the connection between
the two sets of coordinates is linear.
The quadratic forms (1) and (2) are then related by
$$c^{2}(t')^{2}-[(x')^{2}+(y')^{2}+(z')^{2}]=(\lambda)^{2}[c^{2}t^{2}-(x^{2}+y^{2}+z^{2})]$$
where ##\lambda=\lambda(v)## is a possible change of scale between frames.
Why do we need to assume the spacetime are homogeneous and isotropic?
Will the special relativity fail if we ignore those two assumptions?
Many thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
BookWei said:
Why do we need to assume the spacetime are homogeneous and isotropic?
We assume that because it is consistent with all of our observations of how the universe we live in works,
 
If not isotropic, ##\lambda=\lambda(\mathbf{v})\neq \lambda(|\mathbf{v}|)## depending on which direction we are going
If not homogeneous, ##\lambda=\lambda(x,y,z,t)## depending on when and where we are.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Dale
If spacetime isn't isotropic, how can the principle of relativity hold? (even Galileo's version?). How can the laws of physics be the same in every inertial frame if the laws of physics depend on direction? Surely there would exist inertial frames with different spatial orientations, moving in different directions. If spacetime depended on direction, then how can the laws of physics be independent of direction? And if they are not independent of direction, then how can the principle of relativity hold in all inertial frames?

I would ask the same question regarding homogeneity. If the laws of physics depend on location, then clearly the principle of relativity cannot hold, since different inertial frames would presumably be in different locations.
 
If we don't assume isotropy and homogeneity shouldn't we just end up with a direction-dependent one-way speed of light? Since that's unmeasurable, it really boils down to a different "natural" clock synchronisation and no more. It just makes the maths more complex but yields the same measurables.

Or am I oversimplifying?
 
Ibix said:
If we don't assume isotropy and homogeneity shouldn't we just end up with a direction-dependent one-way speed of light? Since that's unmeasurable, it really boils down to a different "natural" clock synchronisation and no more. It just makes the maths more complex but yields the same measurables.

Or am I oversimplifying?
Why wouldn't that also affect the two-way speed of light? And why wouldn't it affect the other laws of physics and measurements as well, in different locations, and in different positions in space and time?
 
Sorcerer said:
Why wouldn't that also affect the two-way speed of light?
I think it does in general. But inhomogeneities that affect the one way speed of light but not the two way speed are permitted, I think. If you choose to use non-orthogonal coordinates you are implicitly assuming such an inhomogeneity, as I understand it
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 48 ·
2
Replies
48
Views
3K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 123 ·
5
Replies
123
Views
8K
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 76 ·
3
Replies
76
Views
4K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K