Spatial derivative of Electric Field in Faraday's Law?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the implications of Faraday's Law, particularly the relationship between the spatial and temporal variations of electric and magnetic fields. Participants explore whether the curl of the electric field can be expressed in terms of time derivatives and the nature of induced currents in conducting loops.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that Faraday's Law indicates a time-varying magnetic field induces an electric field, represented by the equation ##\nabla \times \mathbf{E} = -\frac{\partial \mathbf{B}} {\partial t}##.
  • Others clarify that the left side of the equation does not represent a current, but rather the curl of the electric field, which is related to the changing magnetic field.
  • There is a discussion about whether the induced electric field must be sinusoidal or if it can take on arbitrary forms.
  • Some participants question if the spatial derivative of the electric field can be expressed as a time derivative, suggesting that both fields vary with time and space.
  • One participant provides an example of specific electric and magnetic fields that satisfy Faraday's Law, indicating that both fields can vary with time and space.
  • It is noted that while the spatially changing electric field is often temporally changing, there are exceptions where the time derivative of the magnetic field may not be a function of time.
  • Participants emphasize that the left side of the equation cannot generally be rewritten as a time derivative of the electric field, as the relationships are defined by Maxwell's equations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the equation and the nature of induced currents. There is no consensus on whether the curl of the electric field can be expressed in terms of time derivatives, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these relationships.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of the relationships between electric and magnetic fields, noting that assumptions about the nature of the fields and their dependencies are crucial to the discussion. The limitations of the current understanding are acknowledged, particularly regarding the conditions under which certain derivatives can be applied.

sawer
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According to Faraday's Law, Time-Changing magnetic field creates an induced current in a closed conducting loop.

This is the equation: ##\nabla \times \mathbf{E} = -\frac{\partial \mathbf{B}} {\partial t}##

1-) Does this current (##\nabla \times \mathbf{E} ##) have to be an alternate current(sinusoidal current)?

2-) If it is, then it is not just spatial varying current also time varying current. But why does left side of this equation (##\nabla \times \mathbf{E} ##) include spatial derivative of electric field? Can it be written with time derivative of electric field? (I mean time derivative electric field version). So it means time changing magnetic field relates to time changing electric field.
 
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sawer said:
According to Faraday's Law, Time-Changing magnetic field creates an induced current in a closed conducting loop.

This is the equation: ##\nabla \times \mathbf{E} = -\frac{\partial \mathbf{B}} {\partial t}##
Not quite. There is no current in this equation. A time varying magnetic field generates an electric field that has a curl given by the above equation. You can think of electromotive force around loops being related to the time changing magnetic flux through the loop as well (eg the integral form of this equation).

sawer said:
1-) Does this current (##\nabla \times \mathbf{E} ##) have to be an alternate current(sinusoidal current)?
The time variation does not have to be sinusoidal. It can be arbitrary. Again, no current here.

sawer said:
2-) If it is, then it is not just spatial varying current also time varying current. But why does left side of this equation (##\nabla \times \mathbf{E} ##) include spatial derivative of electric field? Can it be written with time derivative of electric field? (I mean time derivative electric field version). So it means time changing magnetic field relates to time changing electric field.
Not sure what you are getting at here. Perhaps if you explicitly include the dependencies of the fields it is more clear,
##\nabla \times \mathbf{E}(\mathbf{r},t) = -\frac{\partial} {\partial t} \mathbf{B}(\mathbf{r},t)##
So this equation does indicate that the temporally changing magnetic field does yield a temporally changing electric field. The time derivative of the electric field is related to the curl of the magnetic field and the current density - the relationship is given in Ampere's Law. In free space (and MKS units) it is,
## \nabla \times \mathbf{B} = \mu_0 \mathbf{J} + \frac{1}{c^2} \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \mathbf{E} ##.
Here \mathbf{J} is the current density.

Jason
 
jasonRF said:
Not quite. There is no current in this equation.
If there is a conducting loop, doesn't a current appear?
jasonRF said:
##\nabla \times \mathbf{E}(\mathbf{r},t) = -\frac{\partial} {\partial t} \mathbf{B}(\mathbf{r},t)##
So this equation does indicate that the temporally changing magnetic field does yield a temporally changing electric field.
This equation indicates that the temporally changing magnetic field does yield a "spatially" changing electric field. Right?
I am asking if this spatially changing electric field is also temporally changing, then can we write left side of this equation a time derivative version of the electric field? Would it be wrong?

Thanks...
 
sawer said:
If there is a conducting loop, doesn't a current appear?
Yes, a current appears in a conducting loop. Sorry for my mistake there. But please note that \nabla \times \mathbf{E} is not a current.

sawer said:
This equation indicates that the temporally changing magnetic field does yield a "spatially" changing electric field. Right?
If the right hand side of the equation is changing with time, then so is the left hand side. As an example, consider the fields,
\mathbf{B} = \mathbf{\hat{z}} B_0 \sin (\omega t)
\mathbf{E} = (y\mathbf{\hat{x}}- x\mathbf{\hat{y}})\frac{ B_0 \omega }{2} \cos (\omega t)
for B_0 a constant. These two fields are consistent with,
\nabla \times \mathbf{E}(\mathbf{r},t) = -\frac{\partial} {\partial t} \mathbf{B}(\mathbf{r},t).
I would say both the electric and magnetic fields are varying with time, and yes, the electric field varies with position. The magnetic field is spatially uniform in this example.

sawer said:
I am asking if this spatially changing electric field is also temporally changing, then can we write left side of this equation a time derivative version of the electric field? Would it be wrong?
Thanks...
Yes, the spatially changing electric field would usually be temporally changing, as shown above. One exception would be if you have a case where \partial \mathbf{B}/\partial t = \mathbf{F}(\mathbf{r}) so is not a function of time.

No, you cannot in general write the left side as a time derivative of the electric field. There are only three types of derivatives of the electric field that we would need, and all of them are given to us in maxwell's equations. In free space they are,
\nabla \times \mathbf{E} = -\frac{\partial} {\partial t} \mathbf{B}.
\nabla \cdot \mathbf{E} = \rho /\epsilon_0
\frac{\partial} {\partial t} \mathbf{E} = c^2 \nabla \times \mathbf{B} - \mathbf{J}/\epsilon_0

Hope that helps.

Jason
 

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