artis said:
Now I am thinking that the reason for my identical symptoms could be that both the virus and the vaccine share one similar part namely the infamous S protein.
While it is possible, it would be highly unlikely, as described below. A more likely explanation is that the identical symptoms are due to similar immune processes that are triggered.
artis said:
What is the current and latest understanding of the toxicity (neurological or otherwise) of the S protein from the virus (called the wild type) vs the one found in the vaccines which is a bit altered from what I read?
I don't think that there is a definitive answer to this specific question. The wild-type S protein has been shown to have effects on the vascular endothelium in many tissues. This includes, of course, the lungs, but also the heart and the brain. In the brain the wild-type S protein has been shown to disrupt the blood-brain barrier and cross into the brain tissue.
So we do have observed biological effects from the wild-type, but "biological effect" is different from "toxicity". This could not be studied in Covid-infected animals since the infection would confound any attempt to measure spike protein toxicity. So it would require a direct administration of the spike proteins. The only study I could find on this was done in tadpoles (
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34216962/ ) and showed oxidative stress at levels of 100 ng/mL.
The mRNA vaccine induced spike proteins have some key differences with the wild-type spike proteins. These are largely designed to reduce possible toxicity by making the protein attach more firmly to the cell membrane. This difference reduces the amount of circulating vaccine spike protein while simultaneously enhancing the immune response. In other words, the vaccine-type protein should be less toxic and more immunogenic than the wild-type protein. I say "should be" because there is no direct comparison that I am aware of.
One thing to notice is that the mRNA vaccines, by design, do not produce a lot of free spike protein. Average levels are substantially less than 50 pg/mL at all times after the first injection and completely undetectable after the second injection. Even 50 pg/mL is 2000 times less than the lowest dose in the tadpole toxicity study. So vaccine induced spike protein toxicity symptoms are far less likely than vaccine induced immune response symptoms.
artis said:
is it possible even such small quantities could result in certain mild neurological symptoms like cognitive problems (speaking, remembering) or neurological like heart rate, dizziness etc?
All of those can be immune response symptoms. There is no indication that the vaccine spike protein itself could produce such symptoms.
artis said:
is it safe to assume that in all cases upon intramuscular vaccination only very small quantities of S get into the blood (without talking about cases like accidental intravenous injection)
The mRNA vaccines do not contain any spike protein. The vaccine does get into the blood stream where it is destroyed by the liver. The spike protein is only produced when the vaccine gets into the muscle cell. So the route of vaccine spike protein getting in the blood is after it is produced by the muscle cells. Most of the protein stays in the muscle cells or on the cell membrane, and only a little is released as described above. And even then not if the injected person already has antibodies.
artis said:
The symptoms I am talking about I believe are not from the immune reaction, I had those the first few days post injection like feeling tired and a bit numb head.
I don't think that you can know that. Immune responses have time scales on the order of years, not just days. Furthermore, you cannot disentangle the vaccine from your history with Covid. Neurological symptoms are often associated with long-Covid, so it is entirely possible that your immune response to the vaccine is exacerbating long-Covid symptoms.
Furthermore, since you have previously had Covid it is likely that you had some antibodies already present before the first injection. Those antibodies would have bound to any vaccine spike proteins that escaped the muscle cells. This is why even that <50 pg/mL response is absent after the second injection. Thus your prior infection makes a direct toxic response essentially impossible and an immune response even more likely.
artis said:
Now I think it was unfair, because that thread was not about specific peer reviewed science but instead about vaccine post injection side effects.
That was perfectly fair. This site is intended for peer-reviewed science, not personal anecdotes about side effects and speculative hypotheses about their cause. A bunch of anecdotes does not give data. For personal experience, speak to your doctor. For science, we can discuss here.
artis said:
And here I think is the problem , you said it best yourself, the wish to hear only good news, but as you I hope would admit such wish is not scientific in nature
That is not at all a correct characterization of the issue. This is not about wishing to hear good news, but about requiring discussions to be based on scientific evidence. Not personal anecdotes and speculation.
artis said:
But just because Covid is awful and I know that first hand doesn't mean we should flat out deny vaccines having any adverse effects should we?
That is not happening here. We are simply requiring that whatever statements are made regarding vaccine side effects must be consistent with the professional scientific literature on the topic. Personal speculation is not permitted, as is standard everywhere on PF. The issue is that you specifically and individually are making unsubstantiated claims that are not consistent with the literature as part of this discussion. We are not denying vaccine adverse effects, we are denying your specific unsubstantiated claims on the topic.
In fact, neurological symptoms have been transparently reported by the drug developers from the beginning:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577. They are well known, and not at all denied. Given that even your symptoms were temporary, they are considered part of the normal recognized progression of a safe and effective vaccine.
So the issue is not a denial of the presence of neurological symptoms post-vaccination. The issue is the completely speculative claim about the mechanism that is being flat out denied. Your suggested mechanism has no basis in fact and is highly unlikely based on what we do know.
artis said:
I am 99% certain personally (yes personally not scientifically but I do know my body over the years and doctors past) that my neurological symptoms are vaccine induced.
Here is an example. You cannot be 99% certain of something like this. If you are considering yourself as a single case then N=1 simply cannot provide 99% certainty of anything. If you are considering yourself in context as part of the general population then there is no evidence that can justify this certainty and in fact the general evidence is opposed to it. To claim such certainly about something that is not supported in the literature is pure personal speculation and does not belong on PF.
artis said:
Never in my life have I had anything close to these symptoms from any other virus or disease.
Given this thread will most likely be locked away I decided to speak my mind freely but that doesn't mean I am lying.
It is a different disease, so I am not sure why you would expect the symptoms to be like they were for other virus or disease. That still does not mean that it is a toxic response to the spike protein instead of an immune response. This has nothing to do with lying and everything to do with personal speculation.
artis said:
but denying that this vaccine was rushed (for good reasons yes) and has not yet been fully tested to gather all the possible side effects data which normally takes years is wrong
This is incorrect. The vaccine was not rushed nor were the studies. We have at this point more than a century of experience with many different vaccines for many different diseases using many different technologies. We know the time period during which vaccine-induced side effects appear, it is weeks not years. That time period was doubled as the required minimum follow-up time for the emergency use authorization. And even more data was required for the full approval.
Normally these studies do take years, but that is due primarily to recruitment not due to the follow-up period needed to prove vaccine safety. Recruitment was very fast for these vaccine trials, but that does not imply that the data was rushed at all.
Claims like this are simple misinformation. You cannot claim victimhood here when you post personal speculation and misinformation and your thread gets closed down. That is part of the normal process here at PF and is not particular to Covid discussions.
artis said:
But I give up , there is no point of me arguing common sense here, it feels as if you (not just you personally but the staff here in general) are on a payroll for censorship either very fanatic about the new found "religion of hope" and as in every religion the minority is silenced.
This is probably the most standard response from we get from crackpots of all varieties, we are rather immune to it. Yes, we unapologetically censor opinions and claims that are not consistent with the professional scientific literature. We consistently do that everywhere on PF and we do so very publicly. This is not specific to Covid discussions, but is a fundamental part of PF.
artis said:
It takes time and lots of effort to prove these more nuanced side effects especially if they don't progress to being life threatening.
Which is another reason that it makes no sense to claim 99% certainty. All we can say is that at this point there is no data to support your suspicions and some data that makes the idea highly unlikely. With your previous exposure to Covid, the current scientific data would indicate you likely had no circulating spike protein post-vaccination even at the ~1 pg/mL level.
The thread will remain closed
But jokes aside I wasn't vaccinated because I got sick early spring and in my location the vaccine rollout hadn't started yet for my age group. Only for the elderly and med workers.
