Stages of Gas Thermal Ionization

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter gareth
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Ionization
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the thermal ionization of gases, exploring mechanisms of ionization, energy transfer during atomic collisions, and the application of the Saha equation in calculating ionization levels. Participants delve into both theoretical and practical aspects of gas ionization, including the roles of kinetic energy, Coulomb repulsion, and quantum mechanical principles.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that thermal ionization occurs through collisions that provide sufficient energy to eject electrons from atoms.
  • Others mention that ionization can also occur through mechanisms such as irradiation and strong electric fields.
  • One participant suggests that Coulomb repulsion between electrons during high-speed collisions may lead to ionization, but expresses uncertainty about the exact mechanism involved.
  • Another participant explains that kinetic energy from colliding atoms can be converted into excitation energy, potentially leading to ionization if the energy exceeds a threshold.
  • There is a query about the existence of a formula to calculate the degree of ionization in a gas at a given temperature, with a reference to the Saha equation as a relevant tool.
  • One participant discusses the potential influence of the Pauli exclusion principle in high-energy collisions, raising questions about its effects in a hot gas or plasma state.
  • Another participant seeks information on partition functions necessary for evaluating the Saha equation, specifically for monatomic gases, and discusses the complexities of calculating degeneracy terms for more complex systems.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the validity of multiple mechanisms for gas ionization, including thermal processes and external influences. However, there remains uncertainty and debate regarding the specific details of these mechanisms and the implications of quantum principles in high-energy collisions.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the need for specific definitions and assumptions regarding energy thresholds, the complexity of calculating partition functions for various gases, and the unresolved nature of the effects of quantum mechanical principles in high-energy scenarios.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for those interested in gas physics, plasma physics, and the theoretical underpinnings of ionization processes, as well as students and researchers looking for insights into the Saha equation and partition functions.

gareth
Messages
188
Reaction score
0
I'm trying to get my head around how a gas is thermally ionised.

I understand you can ionize a gas by irradiating it with some short wave radiation to overcome the work function of the atom, right?

But I also know you can thermally ionize a gas, i.e. the collisions between the particles themselves actually knock each others electrons out of orbit, is this right?

How does this come about?

thnx
 
Science news on Phys.org
As far as I know, both mechanisms you describe are correct. I think there is even one more "exotic" mechanism where an atom is ionized by a very strong electric field.

As for the "how", the only thing I know is that there has to be "something" that provides the minimum required energy (i.e. the ionization energy). If more energy is supplied, the difference is transformed into kinetic energy of the liberated electron.
 
thanks for the reply,

I imagine that the Coulomb repulsion of the electrons when they get in very close proximity causes the ionisation. This may occur in a hot gas where the atoms are colliding at high speeds.

But I'm still not sure about this mechanism, what actually happens during the collision?
 
During the collision, kinetic energy of the moving atoms is converted into excitation energy of an electron. if the excitation energy is above the threshold for ionisation, then the electron may be lost from the atom.

You'd be right in thinking the coulomb interaction is responsible for transferring the energy.
 
So basically, if the atoms are traveling fast enough when they collide then an electron can be emitted.

Is there a formula that could calculate the expected degree (%) of ionisation in a particular gas (monatomic for simplicity), for a given temperature?
 
Um, you might look up the Saha equation... that could be relevant
 
just what i needed, thanks cadnr
 
cadnr said:
During the collision, kinetic energy of the moving atoms is converted into excitation energy of an electron. if the excitation energy is above the threshold for ionisation, then the electron may be lost from the atom.

You'd be right in thinking the coulomb interaction is responsible for transferring the energy.

I suppose, however, that for sufficiently high energy collisions, the Pauli exclusion force might also come into play
 
cadnr said:
I suppose, however, that for sufficiently high energy collisions, the Pauli exclusion force might also come into play

This is interesting, the principle comes into play when there is an 'overlap' in the deBroglie wavelengths, which is the case is a solid giving the 'band' nature of the solid energy levels.

But if we have a very hot gas, and two atoms are involved in a collision at very high speeds, the electrons might get so close as to incorporate the exclusion principle?

So what would the effect be to the gas/plamsa?

I assume the electrons would have obey the principle and fit into energy bands accordingly, making a degenerate type gas as in a solid.

Any thoughts?
 
  • #10
Another question, this time about the Saha equation which you mentioned cadnr.

I've had a good look at a few different versions of it. It seems you need to know the partition function of the element in question if you want to evaluate it properly.

Does anyone know where I can find these?
 
  • #12
Thanks for the link,

what I would like though is partition functions for monatomic, single element gasses.

I know you can calculate these using the partition funtions, but all the examples I've seen deal with H has, which is obviously a pretty simple solution,

the degeneracy goes something like g=2n^2, n being the number of states available to the electron, so in H the degeneracy terms for the H atom look something like;

g_ion = 1 (because there is no degeneracy with a single proton)

g_neutral = 2 (because n=1, one state available)

My problem is claculating these for more complex systems, say if we have a more complex gas like N for example, how would the degeneracy terms look there? (I know we have to consider the temperature effect on the number of levels, but that is usually negligable and I'll look into that later)


Thanks
 

Similar threads

Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
6K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
8K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
6K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
5K