News State attorney launches bizarre Internet war on openly gay college student

AI Thread Summary
Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell has launched a blog targeting Chris Armstrong, the openly gay student body president at the University of Michigan, using derogatory language and personal attacks. Shirvell has admitted to protesting outside Armstrong's home and posting defaced images of him online. The actions have raised questions about whether they constitute hate-mongering and have sparked significant public outrage, especially given Shirvell's position in the government. Critics argue that Shirvell's behavior reflects a lack of professionalism and maturity, suggesting he should be fired for his actions. The discussion highlights concerns over the limits of free speech for public officials and the implications of Shirvell's conduct on his role within the attorney general's office.
  • #101
G037H3 said:
Under certain circumstances it should be considered to be a permissible act, wherein the accuser's reputation is on the line. Making accusations without any consequences is not at all what I am advocating. Also, I am fully able to speak of the actions of one person to another without thinking of it primarily in a legal context. My mention of the 1st Amendment was not an analysis of the 1st Amendment itself, but a statement on what should be permissible in public discourse. Morality and rationality are outside the bounds of law.

Your belief that something should be is completely irrelevant to what IS, and I get the sense that you don't grasp the meanings of slander and libel. Either way, you're just pushing your own view of how things should be, and the rest of us are discussing an actual event in the real world.

Jack21222: I agree with your first two sentences, and that leads to your third... I have no idea what his politics are, only his particular irrational hatreds, fabrications, and illegal behaviors. Everything else you say, I also agree with, and your last sentence made me lol... it's a damned good analogy. Can you imagine being gay in Michigan right now, knowing that if something happens to you and the state must act on your behalf, Shirvell could be the one to do so? Yikes!
 
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  • #102
Jack21222 said:
I still argue that his "political stance" makes him unable to perform his job properly and fairly.
And you know this because? Unless you are privy to privileged information such as performance evaluations, I suggest that you do not know whether Shirvell is unable to perform his job fairly.

Prosecutors have to uphold laws with which they personally disagree, defense lawyers have to raise a viable defense for absolute scumbags. The ability to separate ones personal beliefs from ones work is an essential trait for lawyers. They are hammered home on why this is essential and how to do so from day one in law school.
nismaratwork said:
(In response to a post by G037H3) I get the sense that you don't grasp the meanings of slander and libel.
I get the sense that you don't grasp the meaning of slander and libel. Libel is a very tough claim in the US, even in cases where the victim is a private citizen. Proving libel is even tougher when the victim is a public figure. Armstrong is a public figure. Truth, opinion, and unfalsifiable statements are viable defenses against claims of libel. Statements directed at a public figure have to go through a long litany of tests to qualify as slander or libel.

What, precisely, has Shirvell said that is slanderous or written that is libelous? Certainly not calling Armstrong so-called gay. Armstrong is admittedly gay. So-called is a noise word, and certainly is not a fighting word. Claiming that Armstrong is pushing a radical agenda? That is opinion and is very well protected. Calling him satan's representative? That is nasty and stupid, but libel? Armstrong would not only have to prove that that statement is false, he would also have to prove that Shirvell knew it to be false. Photoshopping a Nazi flag on a photo of Armstrong? Once again, very nasty, but what does that even mean?If you want to go after Shirvell, slander and libel is not the way to go. Harassment and stalking are quite a different thing.Let me be very clear: I do not like what Shirvell has done. I am not defending Shirvell's written words because I agree with those words. I do not. I am defending his written words because I think that governmental decrees over what constitutes illegal or improper speech has to be kept to a very bare minimum. Ensuring that we in general retain our right to free speech means that some really ugly stuff also has to be allowed.
 
  • #103
Jack21222 said:
It's like religion... government doesn't get to decide which religions are real or fake,
Yes it does. It would be impossible for the government to protect your freedom of religion if it couldn't decide if your religion is actually a religion.

While in principle, I suppose the government could assume absolutely every action a person might take is central to their religion, I doubt that's the standard actually used in real life.
 
  • #104
nismaratwork said:
This is a common misconception that applies here. If Shirvell said, "homosexuals are satanic nazis", THAT is protected speech. Saying, "Armstrong is a satanic nazi" is NOT. The 1st amendment does NOT give you the right to commit slander or libel... in other words, you can't target an individual in this fashion.

slander and libel are not protected, but it is a civil matter. it would be up to Armstrong to file a defamation suit against Shirvell.
 
  • #105
D H said:
And you know this because? Unless you are privy to privileged information such as performance evaluations, I suggest that you do not know whether Shirvell is unable to perform his job fairly.

Prosecutors have to uphold laws with which they personally disagree, defense lawyers have to raise a viable defense for absolute scumbags. The ability to separate ones personal beliefs from ones work is an essential trait for lawyers. They are hammered home on why this is essential and how to do so from day one in law school.



I get the sense that you don't grasp the meaning of slander and libel. Libel is a very tough claim in the US, even in cases where the victim is a private citizen. Proving libel is even tougher when the victim is a public figure. Armstrong is a public figure. Truth, opinion, and unfalsifiable statements are viable defenses against claims of libel. Statements directed at a public figure have to go through a long litany of tests to qualify as slander or libel.

What, precisely, has Shirvell said that is slanderous or written that is libelous? Certainly not calling Armstrong so-called gay. Armstrong is admittedly gay. So-called is a noise word, and certainly is not a fighting word. Claiming that Armstrong is pushing a radical agenda? That is opinion and is very well protected. Calling him satan's representative? That is nasty and stupid, but libel? Armstrong would not only have to prove that that statement is false, he would also have to prove that Shirvell knew it to be false. Photoshopping a Nazi flag on a photo of Armstrong? Once again, very nasty, but what does that even mean?


If you want to go after Shirvell, slander and libel is not the way to go. Harassment and stalking are quite a different thing.


Let me be very clear: I do not like what Shirvell has done. I am not defending Shirvell's written words because I agree with those words. I do not. I am defending his written words because I think that governmental decrees over what constitutes illegal or improper speech has to be kept to a very bare minimum. Ensuring that we in general retain our right to free speech means that some really ugly stuff also has to be allowed.

Good question, and you're right that it's tough to prove libel or slander when directed against a public figure, but Armstrong is a private citizen in a student government; the standard (while still high) is as low as it gets. Student government doesn't qualify one as a public servant in the eyes of the law... you're wrong on a very basic level. That said, Libel is still tough, so let me continue without simply dismissing you out of hand.

Libel, being the written version of Slander:

CNN said:
Blog posts by Andrew Shirvell accuse Chris Armstrong of “engaging in ‘flagrant sexual promiscuity" with another male member of the student government; sexually seducing and influencing ‘a previously conservative [male] student’ ... hosting a gay orgy in his dorm room in October 2009 and trying to recruit incoming first-year students ‘to join the homosexual ‘lifestyle."

Now, the "recruiting" bit is absurd, but it can be argued that doing so isn't wrong, so claims that such is occurring isn't libel. It's clearly absurd on many levels, but I'll stick tot he legality as per your request.

The italicized portions amount to libel in the absence of proof (which he has not yet presented), and especially the claim of holding an orgy is libelous.

The welcome page to his blog states: "Welcome to 'Chris Armstrong Watch,'" Shirvell wrote in his inaugural blog post. "This is a site for concerned University of Michigan alumni, students, and others who oppose the recent election of Chris Armstrong -- a RADICAL HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVIST, RACIST, ELITIST, & LIAR -- as the new head of student government."

With the bolded portions being the ones likely to be considered libel.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-28/us/michigan.justice.blog_1_gay-student-student-government-minority-students?_s=PM:US

The above goes into more detail...

CNN said:
...sexually seducing and influencing "a previously conservative [male] student" so much so that the student, according to Shirvell, "morphed into a proponent of the radical homosexual agenda;"

This is the kind of statement that could even be considered incitement, with the implication that this student is not only engaging in sex with "formerly straight" students, but somehow changing their politics. Given the statistics on gay bashing violence and the espoused reasons for a given event (often perceived seduction or related issues), this is dangerous.

Now, this... is slander:

CNN said:
Shirvell acknowledged protesting outside of Armstrong's house and calling him "Satan's representative on the student assembly."

Of course it's also harassment, for which the police apparently had to be called on more than one occasion. This is just a slice of 6 months of blogging, verbal harassment, stalking behaviour and (failed) attempts to videotape Armstrong in his dwelling to confirm his orgy theory.

We still have to come back to the fact that Armstrong is a college student and NOT a public figure, at least, not in the legal sense. In fact, by making his sexual orientation in context with the libel and slander aforementioned so public it's arguable that Shirvell has placed Armstrong's life in jeopardy from extreme elements. Rebuttal?

@Hurkyl: You're right, and that's a very thorny subject in areas such as the rights of Jehovah's witnesses, or ongoing attempts of Scientology to gain tax exempt status. It usually comes down to judicial rulings based on evidence, and compared to existing standards. There are cases (as in, boxes) full of jurisprudence regarding this issue, and it's incredibly complex, but ultimately as you say, to protect religions they must be identified as religions. It's also worth pointing out that if a crime is central to a religion, it's not allowed either. Even native americans cannot consume psychoactive cacti off the sovereign territory of their reservations; exceptions (such as nonviolence vs. military service) cannot involve a criminal act.
 
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  • #106
Proton Soup said:
slander and libel are not protected, but it is a civil matter. it would be up to Armstrong to file a defamation suit against Shirvell.

It is a civil matter, but it still falls under the rubric of, "conduct unbecoming a public servant"... thus termination on solid grounds. As for a civil suit, I think no one here is placing bets on Shirvell being on anything other than the sharp end of just such a lawsuit.
 
  • #107
nismaratwork said:
It is a civil matter, but it still falls under the rubric of, "conduct unbecoming a public servant"... thus termination on solid grounds. As for a civil suit, I think no one here is placing bets on Shirvell being on anything other than the sharp end of just such a lawsuit.

my bet is that Armstrong does not sue him.

the AG is a political office, which makes AAG political by default. when Mike Cox is gone, Shirvell will quietly disappear also, and this will be but a fart in history.
 
  • #108
Proton Soup said:
my bet is that Armstrong does not sue him.

the AG is a political office, which makes AAG political by default. when Mike Cox is gone, Shirvell will quietly disappear also, and this will be but a fart in history.

Armstrong has already retained a civil attorney beyond the PPO proceedings... I'll bet you one gram of antimatter (I have it a lockbox in my freezer), to one gram of degenerate neutron matter (we both know you have it!) that he does sue. That said, one way or another this still ends up as the fart you mentioned, on that we agree.
 
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  • #109
Hurkyl said:
Yes it does. It would be impossible for the government to protect your freedom of religion if it couldn't decide if your religion is actually a religion.
Out of curiosity, how does the govt decide this? I've looked around briefly, and didn't find anything that helped.
 
  • #111
Gokul43201 said:
Out of curiosity, how does the govt decide this? I've looked around briefly, and didn't find anything that helped.
I'm curious as well.

The glossary of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf has something, at least. Paraphrasing, they have a list of things that churches look like. So for the purposes of granting tax exemption, so long as it looks like a church, its members believe in the church's alleged religion, and aren't doing illegal things, that's good enough for government work.

I imagine this is probably going to be common -- find a government document that has something to say about religious freedoms or what-not, and go check the definitions.
 
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  • #112
Hurkyl said:
I'm curious as well.

The glossary of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf has something, at least. Paraphrasing, they have a list of things that churches look like. So for the purposes of granting tax exemption, so long as it looks like a church, its members believe in the church's alleged religion, and aren't doing illegal things, that's good enough for government work.

I imagine this is probably going to be common -- find a government document that has something to say about religious freedoms or what-not, and go check the definitions.
Because of the thread on the "Church of body modification" qualifying for tax exempt status, I did an extensive search for what the guidelines were that the US government used to define what is a real religion, and aside from tax exemption, there are no guidelines. So if a religion isn't tax exempt is it not a religion?

I see that Druidry has just been officially recognized as a religion in the UK. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpEOokUuF8O9TMlsnYqW0a5Wm8qgD9IJO1B00?docId=D9IJO1B00

This is really getting off topic.
 
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  • #113
Evo said:
Because of the thread on the "Church of body modification" qualifying for tax exempt status, I did an extensive search for what the guidelines were that the US government used to define what is a real religion, and aside from tax exemption, there are no guidelines.
That's when I searched too, and found nothing beyond the guidelines for tax exemption, nor even any mention of possible criteria. I was curious to know if Hurkyl had seen something that I hadn't since his post #103 suggested that he might have. I have no intention of dwelling on this.

Let's return to our original (boringly monolingual and culture-free) discussion.
 
  • #114
Gokul43201 said:
Let's return to our original (boringly monolingual and culture-free) discussion.

There's a reason I haven't said much.
 
  • #115
Gokul43201 said:
That's when I searched too, and found nothing beyond the guidelines for tax exemption, nor even any mention of possible criteria. I was curious to know if Hurkyl had seen something that I hadn't since his post #103 suggested that he might have. I have no intention of dwelling on this.

Let's return to our original (boringly monolingual and culture-free) discussion.

Isn't fun when you realize that a religion is defined, at any given moment, by nothing more than the judiciary choosing to act in accordance with precedent? I know it gives me happy tingles. It's probably one of the few good reasons to be such a relatively conservative country... less play for "religions" like Scientology becoming tax-exempt.

Anyway, didn't mean to go off-topic again, but remember that precedent is often the only guideline the judiciary has, and why each truly new case can be critical. Oh, and here's a twist... a bit of despicable culture, regarding culture, the origins of which have been muddied by modern culture, and adopted by popular culture! "when I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun." or the original german from Hanns Johst's Nazi play, "Wenn ich Kultur höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning.", and of course Stephen Hawkings, "When I hear of Schrödinger's cat, I reach for my pistol."

Ahhh, fun with Nazism... it's weird.

G037H3 said:
There's a reason I haven't said much.

I can't imagine it's encroaching wisdom, manners, a sense of restraint, or newly found cognitive flexibility... so... you simply have nothing more to offer on the subject at hand?
 
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  • #116
nismaratwork said:
I can't imagine it's encroaching wisdom, manners, a sense of restraint, or newly found cognitive flexibility... so... you simply have nothing more to offer on the subject at hand?

Throw a die. :)
 
  • #117
G037H3 said:
Throw a die. :)

A 4 sided die... that brings back memories of D&D from childhood. Yep, I was that nerd.
 
  • #118
nismaratwork said:
A 4 sided die... that brings back memories of D&D from childhood. Yep, I was that nerd.

I think he failed his move silently skill check. That's the reason he hasn't said much, our listen skill is too low.

Is it time to lock this thread yet? I think we've been around in circles a few times.
 
  • #119
...To determine whether an action of the federal or state government infringes upon a person's right to freedom of religion, the court must decide what qualifies as religion or religious activities for purposes of the First Amendment. The Supreme Court has interpreted religion to mean a sincere and meaningful belief that occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to the place held by God in the lives of other persons. The religion or religious concept need not include belief in the existence of God or a supreme being to be within the scope of the First Amendment.

As the case of United States v. Ballard, 322 U.S. 78, 64 S. Ct. 882, 88 L. Ed. 1148 (1944), demonstrates, the Supreme Court must look to the sincerity of a person's beliefs to help decide if those beliefs constitute a religion that deserves constitutional protection.

...In addition, a belief does not need to be stated in traditional terms to fall within First Amendment protection. For example, Scientology—a system of beliefs that a human being is essentially a free and immortal spirit who merely inhabits a body—does not propound the existence of a supreme being, but it qualifies as a religion under the broad definition propounded by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has deliberately avoided establishing an exact or a narrow definition of religion because freedom of religion is a dynamic guarantee that was written in a manner to ensure flexibility and responsiveness to the passage of time and the development of the United States. Thus, religion is not limited to traditional denominations...
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Religion
 
  • #120
Jack21222 said:
I think he failed his move silently skill check. That's the reason he hasn't said much, our listen skill is too low.

Is it time to lock this thread yet? I think we've been around in circles a few times.

:smile: Hail brother nerd!
 
  • #121
nismaratwork said:
A 4 sided die... that brings back memories of D&D from childhood. Yep, I was that nerd.

o_O

older than me i assume

>_>
 
  • #122
G037H3 said:
o_O

older than me i assume

>_>

I have no frame of reference, I know only my own age, and since D&D is still played... who knows? I suppose I bear the burden of culture on these poor shoulders... well, a subculture at least. :wink:
 
  • #123
nismaratwork said:
I have no frame of reference, I know only my own age, and since D&D is still played... who knows? I suppose I bear the burden of culture on these poor shoulders... well, a subculture at least. :wink:

Well, I figure that if the Commodore 64 was available to you, you would have had a better possible hobby than D&D. :P
 
  • #124
Evo said:
This is really getting off topic.

Well, the Church of Latter day OmCheeto's just got together and decided that all assistant attorneys general who verbally abuse and physically stalk college students, have fallen under the right hand of Satan and should be banished from the land, lest they recruit and corrupt the younger assistant attorneys general.

We have therefore decided to stop in Michigan for several days, on our way to that 'Sanity' rally, and picket Mr. Shrivell's house, his parents house, and those who have touched his uncleanliness, until he is banished. We will of course be carrying pictures of his Mother, Father, Siblings, and close relatives, all with swastika's and Hitleresqe mustaches, until said AAG is, as we demanded, twice before, once in the above paragraph, and now twice in this, banished.

Or fired.

I'm sure I'd be fired if I tried anything remotely similar to this crap and my employer found out about it.

The Corporation for Doing Big Things announced today that they fired one of their employees, when it came to their attention that he was burning crosses in front of the house of a black family that had recently moved into his neighborhood. Asked why he would do such things, Mr. OmCheeto stated that blacks shouldn't be allowed in his neighborhood, because according to his religious beliefs, "they just shouldn't". He also criticized his employer for firing him, as he always did his job well, and only burned the crosses when not at work. The CFDBT responded that 10 of Mr. Omcheeto's 20 subordinate employee's were black, and they felt that having him around would, in their words, "violate our policies on hostile work environment, conflict of interest, respect, tolerance, etc. etc.".
 
  • #125
G037H3 said:
Well, I figure that if the Commodore 64 was available to you, you would have had a better possible hobby than D&D. :P

Ouch! As it happens it was available... I just made time for both. I will give you a solid "touche" for that, but every time you level up, get xp, and the like in a game... you're playing a kind of D&D.

Anyway...

OmCheeto: Fired... after being arrested. Very good point.
 
  • #126
He also criticized his employer for firing him, as he always did his job well, and only burned the crosses when not at work. The CFDBT responded that 10 of Mr. Omcheeto's 20 subordinate employee's were black, and they felt that having him around would, in their words, "violate our policies on hostile work environment, conflict of interest, respect, tolerance, etc. etc.".
There may in fact be a parallel that the AG's office should consider. Michigan does not have a law barring discrimination based on sexual orientation, but they do have a policy that protects gay state employees from discrimination in the workplace. Are 100% of the lawyers, clerks, secretaries, etc in the AG's office heterosexual? If not, Shrivell's off-duty activities might contribute to a "hostile" work environment.
 
  • #127
Jack21222 said:
I agree with you, but so much of this thread is focusing on the first amendment that I'm getting confused.
Me, too, especially since the main discussion is whether or not he should be fired, not whether to prosecute him or prevent his speech. Employers are free to use a person's speech as criteria to decide whether or not to employ them whether the speech is protected by the first amendment or not.
 
  • #128
Al68 said:
Me, too, especially since the main discussion is whether or not he should be fired, not whether to prosecute him or prevent his speech.
Punishing someone for speaking in an unpopular way is a form of preventing his speech. And in this case, since it's the government who would be doing the punishing...

I'm pretty sure this point had already been made and accepted. On this particular point, the debate turned to argue whether such speech is actually protected by the first amendment and if so, whether there are greater concerns that outweigh the protection.
 
  • #129
Al68 said:
Employers are free to use a person's speech as criteria to decide whether or not to employ them whether the speech is protected by the first amendment or not.
The government is not free to do so, and this guy is a government employee.
Hurkyl said:
Punishing someone for speaking in an unpopular way is a form of preventing his speech. And in this case, since it's the government who would be doing the punishing...

I'm pretty sure this point had already been made and accepted. On this particular point, the debate turned to argue whether such speech is actually protected by the first amendment and if so, whether there are greater concerns that outweigh the protection.
Based on what people have written in this thread, and from my readings of what people elsewhere write about those who espouse almost any unpopular opinion, I would say just the opposite. The popular consensus appears to be that freedom of speech is a great idea -- so long as the people who are speaking agree with the popular consensus. That is not what freedom of speech is for. It exists to protect those who espouse unpopular (and sometimes absolutely wrong) opinions.
 
  • #130
Firing someone for what they say, and the effects it has on your institution (corp, or AG Office, whichever) isn't impinging on free speech. Free speech doesn't guarantee anything other than... free speech. Stephen Hawking could propose that black holes emit teddy bears, and the result would be that people think he's lost it... his right is still protected, but consequences are too.

The first amendment allows for a debate, but it also allows for the mass expression of disapproval and the consequences that go with it.
 
  • #131
Sue the guy for defamation and vote his boss out of office. Simple plan. Legal plan.
 
  • #132
Where did the belief that free speech means you can say whatever you want come from? According to my reading of history, the term came about after the english revolution in the mid 17th cenury, and in france after their revolution in the late 18th century, when censors lost their jobs. No longer did one have to pay a censor to print speech, hence free speech. It also seemsto me it was the reason americans hated the stamp act, since they had to pay for a stamp to put onto the paper their speech was printed on, effectively making them pay for speech. If free speech really meant that one could say whatever they believe, there could be no libel, slander, or defamation laws. The only thing that has changed is that the speaker is now responsible for his/her speech, it is up to them to govern themselves or accept the consequences their speech brings and I think the AAG is about to find that out, and IMO he should.
 
  • #133
"The government may not restrict speech"
 
  • #134
Hurkyl said:
Punishing someone for speaking in an unpopular way is a form of preventing his speech. And in this case, since it's the government who would be doing the punishing...

I'm pretty sure this point had already been made and accepted. On this particular point, the debate turned to argue whether such speech is actually protected by the first amendment and if so, whether there are greater concerns that outweigh the protection.
Nonsense. Declining to employ someone isn't "punishment". And past employment does not constitute an obligation for future employment.

I have already advocated honoring whatever employment agreement exists. Which means the guy might have to be paid severance pay. You can't use the word "punishment" if the employer honors any employment agreement made.
 
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  • #135
D H said:
The government is not free to do so, and this guy is a government employee.
Yes, the government is free to make employment decisions based on their speech, their dress, their bathing habits, and many other things that we are free to do.

Their simply is no "right to be employed by government". Failure to be employed by government isn't a violation of anyone's rights.
 
  • #136
I... I...

ehem.

I agree completely with Al68.
 
  • #137
nismaratwork said:
I... I...

ehem.

I agree completely with Al68.

Scary, isn't it? :-p
 
  • #138
Al68 said:
Yes, the government is free to make employment decisions based on their speech, their dress, their bathing habits, and many other things that we are free to do.
Dress, bathing habits, maybe. Speech is a different question. The US government, and by extension state and local governments, are very restricted in this regard. The state of Michigan is a just-cause employer rather than an at-will employer. This places further restrictions on why and how the state of Michigan can fire one of its employees. Firing someone just because of he said or wrote something distasteful would be grounds for a illegal termination lawsuit.

Firing someone because he crossed the line between protected speech versus prohibited speech (e.g. speech that qualifies as sexual or racial harassment) is a different matter. Badmouthing someone on the basis of gender or race is illegal. As far as I know, the same does not yet pertain to gender preference in Michigan. Firing someone because he cross the line between protected speech versus prohibited acts is also a different matter. Harassment, stalking, or being a public nuisance could be grounds for dismissal -- but only after Chirvell is given due process.

Let's turn the tables: The Bush administration would have fired James Hansen, for example, on the spot if these protections did not exist. There have been lots and lots of civil servants who have been severe thorns in the side of various administrations. Those thorns would be easily removed were it not for those protections.
 
  • #139
D H said:
Dress, bathing habits, maybe. Speech is a different question. The US government, and by extension state and local governments, are very restricted in this regard. The state of Michigan is a just-cause employer rather than an at-will employer. This places further restrictions on why and how the state of Michigan can fire one of its employees. Firing someone just because of he said or wrote something distasteful would be grounds for a illegal termination lawsuit.

Firing someone because he crossed the line between protected speech versus prohibited speech (e.g. speech that qualifies as sexual or racial harassment) is a different matter. Badmouthing someone on the basis of gender or race is illegal. As far as I know, the same does not yet pertain to gender preference in Michigan. Firing someone because he cross the line between protected speech versus prohibited acts is also a different matter. Harassment, stalking, or being a public nuisance could be grounds for dismissal -- but only after Chirvell is given due process.

Let's turn the tables: The Bush administration would have fired James Hansen, for example, on the spot if these protections did not exist. There have been lots and lots of civil servants who have been severe thorns in the side of various administrations. Those thorns would be easily removed were it not for those protections.

His free speech has exposed an inability to fulfill the requirements of his job: he cannot be considered a fair and adequate representative of the state for all of its residents. He violated the standard that a civil servant needs to act in a manner befitting his job... he's out.

The protections afforded a GS worker are still breached in this case, sorry D H.
 
  • #140
And you know this because?
 
  • #141
Char. Limit said:
"The government may not restrict speech"

But an employer can restrict the speech of their employees. Perhaps not while not at work, but if an employee becomes an embarrassment to a company, there are ways..:devil:

I once had a boss that hated my guts. One day, she decided she would try and get me fired. But because I was a very good worker, she had to go to very peculiar lengths in an attempt to do this. First she had the secretary count up the times I was late. It took the secretary about 4 hours, as back in the olden days, they didn't have computers. She wrote me up for being a total of two hours late over the course of a year. I was of course amazed when I saw the document. I had been 1 minute late 60 times, and 2 minutes late 30 times. She was right though. I'd violated the attendance policy. Next she wrote me up because my socks were too short. That one kind of made me do a double take. But there it was, in black and white; "Abbreviated sport socks that do not extend at least 2 inches above the ankle are not allowed". Strike two. She got me again. Luckily, circumstances arose over the next few days which changed her mind over having me fired.

But anyways, I wonder if they have an "ugly tie" policy at the AG's office. :rolleyes:
 
  • #142
D H said:
And you know this because?

Cited earlier in the thread, multiple times. Include the fact that Shirvell has denied nothing, and you can draw conclusions now.
 
  • #143
OmCheeto said:
But an employer can restrict the speech of their employees.
Governments as employers are subject to more restricted rules than other employers. For example, thanks to Citizens United v. FEC, your non-government employer may now be able to force you to listen to the company's political views at mandatory meetings or risk termination. The government can't do that to its employees -- yet.

but if an employee becomes an embarrassment to a company, there are ways..:devil:
Sure. There are always ways to get rid of someone without stating the real reason for getting rid of them. Give them a bad performance review, find some obscure employment rule such as socks that are too short, ... Since most employers are at-will employers not much is required at all to terminate an undesirable employee without being hit by a wrongful termination lawsuit.

The state of Michigan however is a just-cause rather than an at-will employer and it is a governmental agency to boot.
 
  • #144
nismaratwork said:
D H said:
And you know this because?

Cited earlier in the thread, multiple times. Include the fact that Shirvell has denied nothing, and you can draw conclusions now.Cited earlier in the thread, multiple times. Include the fact that Shirvell has denied nothing, and you can draw conclusions now.
All you guys have cites is your utter dislike for the guy. You have cited no laws, no regulations, just raw emotions and opinions.

The state of Michigan has some rather strict rules regarding terminations in general. That it is a government rather than a corporation makes these rules very strict indeed.
 
  • #145
D H said:
The state of Michigan has some rather strict rules regarding terminations in general.
It may very well be true that firing this guy would violate Michigan law, or the state's employment policies. I never said otherwise. I said it wouldn't violate the first amendment.
 
  • #148
D H said:
And you know this because?

Look, we're going around in circles right now.

We don't NEED to provide any specific examples of where he didn't treat somebody fairly on the job. In the same way, we don't need to prove a judge was influenced because he owns stock in a company. Or a congressman was influenced because his wife owns a company he voted on legislation about.

In all of these cases, the mere appearance of impropriety is enough to taint the whole process.

You apparently have some more detailed knowledge of Michigan's employment laws than I do, so there may be some kind of weird technical reason they can't fire him, but it still doesn't make it right.

If permissible by his contract, he should be fired. If not possible, laws need to change.
 
  • #149
Evo said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100929/us_yblog_upshot/state-attorney-launches-bizarre-internet-war-on-openly-gay-college-student;_ylt=AhXNSpSGQD8oYgT.j_UZkXtH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTVyZGQ0ZG50BGFzc2V0Ay9zL3libG9nX3Vwc2hvdC8yMDEwMDkyOS91c195YmxvZ191cHNob3Qvc3RhdGUtYXR0b3JuZXktbGF1bmNoZXMtYml6YXJyZS1pbnRlcm5ldC13YXItb24tb3Blbmx5LWdheS1jb2xsZWdlLXN0dWRlbnQEY2NvZGUDbXBfZWNfOF8xMARjcG9zAzYEcG9zAzYEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNtaWNoc3RhdGVvZmY-

Don't the actions of Shirvell, the assistant state attorney general for Michigan amount to hate mongering?

Watch the interview Anderson Cooper has with Shirvell.

I don't think that hating someone or something is illegal. Humans should have the right to love or hate whatever they want, regardless of the so called "morality", within established laws.
 
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  • #150
DanP said:
I don't think that hating someone or something is illegal. Humans should have the right to love or hate whatever they want, regardless of the so called "morality", within established laws.

Please read the thread. Nobody has argued otherwise. Nobody said what he did should be illegal. Your post is a complete non sequitur.
 
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