News State attorney launches bizarre Internet war on openly gay college student

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Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell has launched a blog targeting Chris Armstrong, the openly gay student body president at the University of Michigan, using derogatory language and personal attacks. Shirvell has admitted to protesting outside Armstrong's home and posting defaced images of him online. The actions have raised questions about whether they constitute hate-mongering and have sparked significant public outrage, especially given Shirvell's position in the government. Critics argue that Shirvell's behavior reflects a lack of professionalism and maturity, suggesting he should be fired for his actions. The discussion highlights concerns over the limits of free speech for public officials and the implications of Shirvell's conduct on his role within the attorney general's office.
  • #91
Jack21222 said:
I agree with you, but so much of this thread is focusing on the first amendment that I'm getting confused.
Free speech is Shirvel's excuse as his defense, but it doesn't hold water.
 
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  • #92
I think he is still protected by the 1st Amendment, but he's sort of pushing it. As in, I would fire him if I were his boss, because he seems like a biased creep anyways.
 
  • #93
G037H3 said:
I think he is still protected by the 1st Amendment, but he's sort of pushing it. As in, I would fire him if I were his boss, because he seems like a biased creep anyways.

You can think whatever you want, but this is settled law for well over a century and more. You can't target individuals with slander and libel and be protected under the 1st ammendment. I realize that this is Physics Forums, and not Law Review... but still... enough. We don't need a constant reiteration of Shirvell's defense when it's legally unsound on its face.

Gokul: Hate Mongering isn't the issue, and never was; it is the specific harassment of one man that is. Nothing more or less has been alleged, so why introduce a broad and nebulous term that has no bearing on this discussion? You don't NEED to reach the point of incitement when it is speech against a SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL, as long as that speech is untrue; It's that simple. Incitement is an issue of groups, and attempts to have them targeted by proxy... by definition when this becomes an individual issue involving blatant lies about specific conduct it's libel, slander, harassment.

The only reason that the 1st amendment has even been raised here, beyond reference to the AAG and AG's defense is a lack of understanding of federal law here. I'm not just talking to you Gokul, but obviously G037H3 is an example of someone who can sail through 5 pages of this blissfully unencumbered by facts. I suggest that this thread be book-ended with links to the relevant case-law and rulings if this how it's going to proceed.

If I become any more clear you'll see daylight through me, and if I'm any more direct it would be insulting. I appreciate the consensus that he should be fired (now), but that this wasn't obvious from the first page is genuinely disturbing, as all the facts that are available now were in place then!
 
  • #94
nismaratwork said:
Gokul: Hate Mongering isn't the issue, and never was...
You need to read the OP again then, and the post I was responding to.
 
  • #95
Modern society has no real social moderating principle other than popular culture and the full force of the law. The problem is that law has very little to do with morality at this point in time, and much more to do with powerful political and business interests.

I care very little for learning lots of laws, as the totality of federal law is more than a dozen million words, which no person can learn comprehensively. Slander and libel should be allowed in situations that have no real political or business implications, because an opinion regarding another should be capable of being expressed, even if it is disliked by others or by the target. It is not the fault of someone who makes a claim that everyone focuses on surface appearances and not the core argument behind statements.
I appreciate the consensus that he should be fired (now), but that this wasn't obvious from the first page is genuinely disturbing, as all the facts that are available now were in place then!

Before you think that it is wise to rush to such a judgment, you should realize that you yourself cannot know if you will ever be accused of a similar breach of socially acceptable behaviour, regardless of whether or not it is true or not. So it is best to defer judgment.
 
  • #96
Jack21222 said:
I still don't understand where the first amendment protects your right to have a specific job. In the private sector, this guy would have been quickly fired. Do we hold government employees to a lower standard that the private sector?
TIme for a history lesson.

The extent to which civil servants can espouse political views varies quite a bit over the history of the country. Up until the late 1800s civil servants *had* to espouse political views -- and they had to espouse the "right" political views, namely the views of whoever was in power. Almost every government job was a political appointment. "To the victor go the spoils." Bribes helped land a job. Money and corruption percolated up, making people at the top very rich and very dirty indeed. Boss Tweed, for example, was eventually convicted of stealing over a billion dollars (in 2010 dollars).

That had to stop, and eventually it did. The assassination of President Garfield was what finally turn the tables. Our modern civil service, with GS grades and all that, started in the 1880s. Being the government, things went from one extreme to another. That wasn't good enough, so in the 1930s things became even more stringent with the Hatch Act.

Because civil servants are significantly restricted in what they can do with regard to politics, those things that civil servants can do (e.g., espouse political opinions on their own time) with regard to politics receive strong protection. As much as presidents/governors/mayors etc. of all ilk would like, they cannot fire people below political appointees for their political or religious views.
 
  • #97
G037H3 said:
Modern society has no real social moderating principle other than popular culture and the full force of the law. The problem is that law has very little to do with morality at this point in time, and much more to do with powerful political and business interests.

I care very little for learning lots of laws, as the totality of federal law is more than a dozen million words, which no person can learn comprehensively. Slander and libel should be allowed in situations that have no real political or business implications, because an opinion regarding another should be capable of being expressed, even if it is disliked by others or by the target. It is not the fault of someone who makes a claim that everyone focuses on surface appearances and not the core argument behind statements.


Before you think that it is wise to rush to such a judgment, you should realize that you yourself cannot know if you will ever be accused of a similar breach of socially acceptable behaviour, regardless of whether or not it is true or not. So it is best to defer judgment.

Re: bolded portion: that's absurd, especially given that Shirvell has not only failed to DENY these issues, but actually bragged about them on national television. Your opinion that slander and libel should be allowed is as baffling as it is irrelevant, but at least you're honest in not caring about anything but your own opinion informed by ignorance of the law. When it comes to that, if you are willfully ignorant of the law, then don't invoke the 1st amendment on anther's behalf when that is a LEGAL point.
 
  • #98
D H said:
TIme for a history lesson.

The extent to which civil servants can espouse political views varies quite a bit over the history of the country. Up until the late 1800s civil servants *had* to espouse political views -- and they had to espouse the "right" political views, namely the views of whoever was in power. Almost every government job was a political appointment. "To the victor go the spoils." Bribes helped land a job. Money and corruption percolated up, making people at the top very rich and very dirty indeed. Boss Tweed, for example, was eventually convicted of stealing over a billion dollars (in 2010 dollars).

That had to stop, and eventually it did. The assassination of President Garfield was what finally turn the tables. Our modern civil service, with GS grades and all that, started in the 1880s. Being the government, things went from one extreme to another. That wasn't good enough, so in the 1930s things became even more stringent with the Hatch Act.

Because civil servants are significantly restricted in what they can do with regard to politics, those things that civil servants can do (e.g., espouse political opinions on their own time) with regard to politics receive strong protection. As much as presidents/governors/mayors etc. of all ilk would like, they cannot fire people below political appointees for their political or religious views.

Given Shirvell's actions (putting aside the blog) he still meets the criteria for dismissal, but this is probably the best post I've read in pages. In reality of course, this is why firing is rare, but resignations are incredibly common. Cox could have fired Shirvell without violating the law, but your post certainly goes a long way towards explaining why civil service jobs are often seen as bulletproof.
 
  • #99
nismaratwork said:
Re: bolded portion: that's absurd, especially given that Shirvell has not only failed to DENY these issues, but actually bragged about them on national television. Your opinion that slander and libel should be allowed is as baffling as it is irrelevant, but at least you're honest in not caring about anything but your own opinion informed by ignorance of the law. When it comes to that, if you are willfully ignorant of the law, then don't invoke the 1st amendment on anther's behalf when that is a LEGAL point.

Under certain circumstances it should be considered to be a permissible act, wherein the accuser's reputation is on the line. Making accusations without any consequences is not at all what I am advocating. Also, I am fully able to speak of the actions of one person to another without thinking of it primarily in a legal context. My mention of the 1st Amendment was not an analysis of the 1st Amendment itself, but a statement on what should be permissible in public discourse. Morality and rationality are outside the bounds of law.
 
  • #100
On one hand, I don't think outright bigotry is an actual political stance. On the other, it's not the government's job to determine what a valid political stance is.

I still argue that his "political stance" makes him unable to perform his job properly and fairly.

It's like religion... government doesn't get to decide which religions are real or fake, but if you rape 13 year oldsin the name of your religion and claim freedom of religion protection, you're out of luck.

Expressing (and acting out on) your hatred for a group of people may or may not be a legitimate political stance, that isn't for the government to decide. Be put in a position where you're investigating a claim against, or on behalf of, that group, and I see an obvious conflict of interest. In this case, his particular political view makes it impossible to do his job properly.

Having this guy in a position of power over homosexuals is like having a member of NAMBLA as a boy scout leader.
 
  • #101
G037H3 said:
Under certain circumstances it should be considered to be a permissible act, wherein the accuser's reputation is on the line. Making accusations without any consequences is not at all what I am advocating. Also, I am fully able to speak of the actions of one person to another without thinking of it primarily in a legal context. My mention of the 1st Amendment was not an analysis of the 1st Amendment itself, but a statement on what should be permissible in public discourse. Morality and rationality are outside the bounds of law.

Your belief that something should be is completely irrelevant to what IS, and I get the sense that you don't grasp the meanings of slander and libel. Either way, you're just pushing your own view of how things should be, and the rest of us are discussing an actual event in the real world.

Jack21222: I agree with your first two sentences, and that leads to your third... I have no idea what his politics are, only his particular irrational hatreds, fabrications, and illegal behaviors. Everything else you say, I also agree with, and your last sentence made me lol... it's a damned good analogy. Can you imagine being gay in Michigan right now, knowing that if something happens to you and the state must act on your behalf, Shirvell could be the one to do so? Yikes!
 
  • #102
Jack21222 said:
I still argue that his "political stance" makes him unable to perform his job properly and fairly.
And you know this because? Unless you are privy to privileged information such as performance evaluations, I suggest that you do not know whether Shirvell is unable to perform his job fairly.

Prosecutors have to uphold laws with which they personally disagree, defense lawyers have to raise a viable defense for absolute scumbags. The ability to separate ones personal beliefs from ones work is an essential trait for lawyers. They are hammered home on why this is essential and how to do so from day one in law school.
nismaratwork said:
(In response to a post by G037H3) I get the sense that you don't grasp the meanings of slander and libel.
I get the sense that you don't grasp the meaning of slander and libel. Libel is a very tough claim in the US, even in cases where the victim is a private citizen. Proving libel is even tougher when the victim is a public figure. Armstrong is a public figure. Truth, opinion, and unfalsifiable statements are viable defenses against claims of libel. Statements directed at a public figure have to go through a long litany of tests to qualify as slander or libel.

What, precisely, has Shirvell said that is slanderous or written that is libelous? Certainly not calling Armstrong so-called gay. Armstrong is admittedly gay. So-called is a noise word, and certainly is not a fighting word. Claiming that Armstrong is pushing a radical agenda? That is opinion and is very well protected. Calling him satan's representative? That is nasty and stupid, but libel? Armstrong would not only have to prove that that statement is false, he would also have to prove that Shirvell knew it to be false. Photoshopping a Nazi flag on a photo of Armstrong? Once again, very nasty, but what does that even mean?If you want to go after Shirvell, slander and libel is not the way to go. Harassment and stalking are quite a different thing.Let me be very clear: I do not like what Shirvell has done. I am not defending Shirvell's written words because I agree with those words. I do not. I am defending his written words because I think that governmental decrees over what constitutes illegal or improper speech has to be kept to a very bare minimum. Ensuring that we in general retain our right to free speech means that some really ugly stuff also has to be allowed.
 
  • #103
Jack21222 said:
It's like religion... government doesn't get to decide which religions are real or fake,
Yes it does. It would be impossible for the government to protect your freedom of religion if it couldn't decide if your religion is actually a religion.

While in principle, I suppose the government could assume absolutely every action a person might take is central to their religion, I doubt that's the standard actually used in real life.
 
  • #104
nismaratwork said:
This is a common misconception that applies here. If Shirvell said, "homosexuals are satanic nazis", THAT is protected speech. Saying, "Armstrong is a satanic nazi" is NOT. The 1st amendment does NOT give you the right to commit slander or libel... in other words, you can't target an individual in this fashion.

slander and libel are not protected, but it is a civil matter. it would be up to Armstrong to file a defamation suit against Shirvell.
 
  • #105
D H said:
And you know this because? Unless you are privy to privileged information such as performance evaluations, I suggest that you do not know whether Shirvell is unable to perform his job fairly.

Prosecutors have to uphold laws with which they personally disagree, defense lawyers have to raise a viable defense for absolute scumbags. The ability to separate ones personal beliefs from ones work is an essential trait for lawyers. They are hammered home on why this is essential and how to do so from day one in law school.



I get the sense that you don't grasp the meaning of slander and libel. Libel is a very tough claim in the US, even in cases where the victim is a private citizen. Proving libel is even tougher when the victim is a public figure. Armstrong is a public figure. Truth, opinion, and unfalsifiable statements are viable defenses against claims of libel. Statements directed at a public figure have to go through a long litany of tests to qualify as slander or libel.

What, precisely, has Shirvell said that is slanderous or written that is libelous? Certainly not calling Armstrong so-called gay. Armstrong is admittedly gay. So-called is a noise word, and certainly is not a fighting word. Claiming that Armstrong is pushing a radical agenda? That is opinion and is very well protected. Calling him satan's representative? That is nasty and stupid, but libel? Armstrong would not only have to prove that that statement is false, he would also have to prove that Shirvell knew it to be false. Photoshopping a Nazi flag on a photo of Armstrong? Once again, very nasty, but what does that even mean?


If you want to go after Shirvell, slander and libel is not the way to go. Harassment and stalking are quite a different thing.


Let me be very clear: I do not like what Shirvell has done. I am not defending Shirvell's written words because I agree with those words. I do not. I am defending his written words because I think that governmental decrees over what constitutes illegal or improper speech has to be kept to a very bare minimum. Ensuring that we in general retain our right to free speech means that some really ugly stuff also has to be allowed.

Good question, and you're right that it's tough to prove libel or slander when directed against a public figure, but Armstrong is a private citizen in a student government; the standard (while still high) is as low as it gets. Student government doesn't qualify one as a public servant in the eyes of the law... you're wrong on a very basic level. That said, Libel is still tough, so let me continue without simply dismissing you out of hand.

Libel, being the written version of Slander:

CNN said:
Blog posts by Andrew Shirvell accuse Chris Armstrong of “engaging in ‘flagrant sexual promiscuity" with another male member of the student government; sexually seducing and influencing ‘a previously conservative [male] student’ ... hosting a gay orgy in his dorm room in October 2009 and trying to recruit incoming first-year students ‘to join the homosexual ‘lifestyle."

Now, the "recruiting" bit is absurd, but it can be argued that doing so isn't wrong, so claims that such is occurring isn't libel. It's clearly absurd on many levels, but I'll stick tot he legality as per your request.

The italicized portions amount to libel in the absence of proof (which he has not yet presented), and especially the claim of holding an orgy is libelous.

The welcome page to his blog states: "Welcome to 'Chris Armstrong Watch,'" Shirvell wrote in his inaugural blog post. "This is a site for concerned University of Michigan alumni, students, and others who oppose the recent election of Chris Armstrong -- a RADICAL HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVIST, RACIST, ELITIST, & LIAR -- as the new head of student government."

With the bolded portions being the ones likely to be considered libel.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-28/us/michigan.justice.blog_1_gay-student-student-government-minority-students?_s=PM:US

The above goes into more detail...

CNN said:
...sexually seducing and influencing "a previously conservative [male] student" so much so that the student, according to Shirvell, "morphed into a proponent of the radical homosexual agenda;"

This is the kind of statement that could even be considered incitement, with the implication that this student is not only engaging in sex with "formerly straight" students, but somehow changing their politics. Given the statistics on gay bashing violence and the espoused reasons for a given event (often perceived seduction or related issues), this is dangerous.

Now, this... is slander:

CNN said:
Shirvell acknowledged protesting outside of Armstrong's house and calling him "Satan's representative on the student assembly."

Of course it's also harassment, for which the police apparently had to be called on more than one occasion. This is just a slice of 6 months of blogging, verbal harassment, stalking behaviour and (failed) attempts to videotape Armstrong in his dwelling to confirm his orgy theory.

We still have to come back to the fact that Armstrong is a college student and NOT a public figure, at least, not in the legal sense. In fact, by making his sexual orientation in context with the libel and slander aforementioned so public it's arguable that Shirvell has placed Armstrong's life in jeopardy from extreme elements. Rebuttal?

@Hurkyl: You're right, and that's a very thorny subject in areas such as the rights of Jehovah's witnesses, or ongoing attempts of Scientology to gain tax exempt status. It usually comes down to judicial rulings based on evidence, and compared to existing standards. There are cases (as in, boxes) full of jurisprudence regarding this issue, and it's incredibly complex, but ultimately as you say, to protect religions they must be identified as religions. It's also worth pointing out that if a crime is central to a religion, it's not allowed either. Even native americans cannot consume psychoactive cacti off the sovereign territory of their reservations; exceptions (such as nonviolence vs. military service) cannot involve a criminal act.
 
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  • #106
Proton Soup said:
slander and libel are not protected, but it is a civil matter. it would be up to Armstrong to file a defamation suit against Shirvell.

It is a civil matter, but it still falls under the rubric of, "conduct unbecoming a public servant"... thus termination on solid grounds. As for a civil suit, I think no one here is placing bets on Shirvell being on anything other than the sharp end of just such a lawsuit.
 
  • #107
nismaratwork said:
It is a civil matter, but it still falls under the rubric of, "conduct unbecoming a public servant"... thus termination on solid grounds. As for a civil suit, I think no one here is placing bets on Shirvell being on anything other than the sharp end of just such a lawsuit.

my bet is that Armstrong does not sue him.

the AG is a political office, which makes AAG political by default. when Mike Cox is gone, Shirvell will quietly disappear also, and this will be but a fart in history.
 
  • #108
Proton Soup said:
my bet is that Armstrong does not sue him.

the AG is a political office, which makes AAG political by default. when Mike Cox is gone, Shirvell will quietly disappear also, and this will be but a fart in history.

Armstrong has already retained a civil attorney beyond the PPO proceedings... I'll bet you one gram of antimatter (I have it a lockbox in my freezer), to one gram of degenerate neutron matter (we both know you have it!) that he does sue. That said, one way or another this still ends up as the fart you mentioned, on that we agree.
 
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  • #109
Hurkyl said:
Yes it does. It would be impossible for the government to protect your freedom of religion if it couldn't decide if your religion is actually a religion.
Out of curiosity, how does the govt decide this? I've looked around briefly, and didn't find anything that helped.
 
  • #111
Gokul43201 said:
Out of curiosity, how does the govt decide this? I've looked around briefly, and didn't find anything that helped.
I'm curious as well.

The glossary of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf has something, at least. Paraphrasing, they have a list of things that churches look like. So for the purposes of granting tax exemption, so long as it looks like a church, its members believe in the church's alleged religion, and aren't doing illegal things, that's good enough for government work.

I imagine this is probably going to be common -- find a government document that has something to say about religious freedoms or what-not, and go check the definitions.
 
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  • #112
Hurkyl said:
I'm curious as well.

The glossary of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf has something, at least. Paraphrasing, they have a list of things that churches look like. So for the purposes of granting tax exemption, so long as it looks like a church, its members believe in the church's alleged religion, and aren't doing illegal things, that's good enough for government work.

I imagine this is probably going to be common -- find a government document that has something to say about religious freedoms or what-not, and go check the definitions.
Because of the thread on the "Church of body modification" qualifying for tax exempt status, I did an extensive search for what the guidelines were that the US government used to define what is a real religion, and aside from tax exemption, there are no guidelines. So if a religion isn't tax exempt is it not a religion?

I see that Druidry has just been officially recognized as a religion in the UK. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpEOokUuF8O9TMlsnYqW0a5Wm8qgD9IJO1B00?docId=D9IJO1B00

This is really getting off topic.
 
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  • #113
Evo said:
Because of the thread on the "Church of body modification" qualifying for tax exempt status, I did an extensive search for what the guidelines were that the US government used to define what is a real religion, and aside from tax exemption, there are no guidelines.
That's when I searched too, and found nothing beyond the guidelines for tax exemption, nor even any mention of possible criteria. I was curious to know if Hurkyl had seen something that I hadn't since his post #103 suggested that he might have. I have no intention of dwelling on this.

Let's return to our original (boringly monolingual and culture-free) discussion.
 
  • #114
Gokul43201 said:
Let's return to our original (boringly monolingual and culture-free) discussion.

There's a reason I haven't said much.
 
  • #115
Gokul43201 said:
That's when I searched too, and found nothing beyond the guidelines for tax exemption, nor even any mention of possible criteria. I was curious to know if Hurkyl had seen something that I hadn't since his post #103 suggested that he might have. I have no intention of dwelling on this.

Let's return to our original (boringly monolingual and culture-free) discussion.

Isn't fun when you realize that a religion is defined, at any given moment, by nothing more than the judiciary choosing to act in accordance with precedent? I know it gives me happy tingles. It's probably one of the few good reasons to be such a relatively conservative country... less play for "religions" like Scientology becoming tax-exempt.

Anyway, didn't mean to go off-topic again, but remember that precedent is often the only guideline the judiciary has, and why each truly new case can be critical. Oh, and here's a twist... a bit of despicable culture, regarding culture, the origins of which have been muddied by modern culture, and adopted by popular culture! "when I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun." or the original german from Hanns Johst's Nazi play, "Wenn ich Kultur höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning.", and of course Stephen Hawkings, "When I hear of Schrödinger's cat, I reach for my pistol."

Ahhh, fun with Nazism... it's weird.

G037H3 said:
There's a reason I haven't said much.

I can't imagine it's encroaching wisdom, manners, a sense of restraint, or newly found cognitive flexibility... so... you simply have nothing more to offer on the subject at hand?
 
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  • #116
nismaratwork said:
I can't imagine it's encroaching wisdom, manners, a sense of restraint, or newly found cognitive flexibility... so... you simply have nothing more to offer on the subject at hand?

Throw a die. :)
 
  • #117
G037H3 said:
Throw a die. :)

A 4 sided die... that brings back memories of D&D from childhood. Yep, I was that nerd.
 
  • #118
nismaratwork said:
A 4 sided die... that brings back memories of D&D from childhood. Yep, I was that nerd.

I think he failed his move silently skill check. That's the reason he hasn't said much, our listen skill is too low.

Is it time to lock this thread yet? I think we've been around in circles a few times.
 
  • #119
...To determine whether an action of the federal or state government infringes upon a person's right to freedom of religion, the court must decide what qualifies as religion or religious activities for purposes of the First Amendment. The Supreme Court has interpreted religion to mean a sincere and meaningful belief that occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to the place held by God in the lives of other persons. The religion or religious concept need not include belief in the existence of God or a supreme being to be within the scope of the First Amendment.

As the case of United States v. Ballard, 322 U.S. 78, 64 S. Ct. 882, 88 L. Ed. 1148 (1944), demonstrates, the Supreme Court must look to the sincerity of a person's beliefs to help decide if those beliefs constitute a religion that deserves constitutional protection.

...In addition, a belief does not need to be stated in traditional terms to fall within First Amendment protection. For example, Scientology—a system of beliefs that a human being is essentially a free and immortal spirit who merely inhabits a body—does not propound the existence of a supreme being, but it qualifies as a religion under the broad definition propounded by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has deliberately avoided establishing an exact or a narrow definition of religion because freedom of religion is a dynamic guarantee that was written in a manner to ensure flexibility and responsiveness to the passage of time and the development of the United States. Thus, religion is not limited to traditional denominations...
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Religion
 
  • #120
Jack21222 said:
I think he failed his move silently skill check. That's the reason he hasn't said much, our listen skill is too low.

Is it time to lock this thread yet? I think we've been around in circles a few times.

:smile: Hail brother nerd!