Stored Lithium-ion batteries self exterminate after 2-3 years?

[Pleonasm]

That's not a full cycle.

I would reach full cycles (100% charging) faster If I charge it every 10% drop with 10% (from 65 to 75%). There's an 80% drop in performance once a certain number of full cycles have been reached.

 

[Drakkith]

I would reach full cycles (100% charging) faster If I charge it every 10% drop with 10% (from 65 to 75%).

A 10% charge is not a full cycle, no matter how many times you do it. I honestly can't tell you how the battery would behave.

 

[anorlunda]

This may not be relevant to the OP's problem, but I discovered the hard way that I was mistreating batteries.

At the time, I was living on a sailboat which is subject to vigorous wave action. I had devilish problems with rechargeable NiMh and Li batteries. They would last only a month or two. After several years, I figured it out.

The smart battery chargers would automatically cut off when full charge is reached. But vibrations, or shaking the charger caused the logic to reset. Then it would apply full charge current for a few minutes when it figured out again that it had full charge. But if the shaking reset the logic every 20-30 seconds, then the overcharge never ceases. I finally figured it out because the batteries in the charger became too hot to touch. Putting the charger horizontal on a cushion instead of mounting it vertically on the wall solved the problems.

 

[Pleonasm]

A 10% charge is not a full cycle, no matter how many times you do it. I honestly can't tell you how the battery would behave.

I don't get it. If that's the case, there would be no way of achieving a full cycle without a full discharge and then recharge to 100.

 

[Drakkith]

I don't get it. If that's the case, there would be no way of achieving a full cycle without a full discharge and then recharge to 100.

What don't you get?

 

[Pleonasm]

What don't you get?

If I can't get a full cycle out of constant 10% charge and discharge , and lion batteries functionality is defined by a certain number of full cycles (they deteriorate 80% after a certain number of full cyles), then a Lion battery couldn't possibly deteriorate, ever, in the event of me by me doing 10% charge and discharges ad infinitum?

 

[Drakkith]

I I can't get a full cycle out of constant 10% charge and discharge , and lion batteries functionality is defined by a certain number of full cycles (they deteriorate 80% after a certain number of full cyles), then a Lion battery couldn't possibly deteriorate, ever, in the event of me by me doing 10% charge and discharges ad infinitum?

...do you really believe that?

 

[Pleonasm]

...do you really believe that?

What other conclusion can I draw from your statement if Lion batteries functionalites are defined by their number of full cycles (assuming proper storage).

 

[Drakkith]

What other conclusion can I draw from your statement if Lion batteries functionalites are defined by their number of full cycles (assuming proper storage).

What you should take from my statement is that a 10% charge is not a full charge and that I don't exactly how the battery will behave. I don't know how you got the idea that only a full charge results in degradation. If that were the case, wouldn't the standard procedure be to just charge your battery to 90% or so instead of a full charge?

 

[Pleonasm]

What you should take from my statement is that a 10% charge is not a full charge and that I don't exactly how the battery will behave. I don't know how you got the idea that only a full charge results in degradation. If that were the case, wouldn't the standard procedure be to just charge your battery to 90% or so instead of a full charge?

The batteries are too warm at 90% (heat kills battery). If you keep them around 75-65%, they will be neither hot nor cold. Depending on your phone model and usage, it would not neccesarily get warm from everyday usage.

 

[Drakkith]

The batteries are too warm at 90% (heat kills battery). If you keep them around 75-65%, they will be neither hot nor cold. Depending on your phone model and usage, it would not neccesarily get warm from everyday usage.

What is the relationship between battery charge level and temperature?

As far as I now, the issue with the charge-discharge cycle is that it the chemical reactions inside the battery gradually break down the battery. This happens to some extent for any charge-discharge cycle, regardless of whether it is a 10% cycle or a 100% cycle.

 

[symbolipoint]

https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery2.htm

"Lithium-ion batteries age. They only last two to three years, even if they are sitting on a shelf unused. So do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years."

Is this claim substantied by facts? My mother has a lion-battery smartphone from 2013 still in use. Can someone explain how it's still working if the battery will self exterminate within 2-3 years regardless of use?

Without technical knowledge about them specifically, the claim is YES. Just by personal experience.
I had a device with a rechargeable battery packed in. I tried using it 6 years after purchase.. No keep of charge; useless. On the other hand, similar device having been in daily use for more than 7 years still useful. The older device will not keep its charge too long upon recharge, but it still does take a charge and can be used while the one which was stored without use for 6 years became useless. Charging it has no effect - dead!(small edit on oct 9 2018)

 

[Rive]

The batteries are too warm at 90%

90% has nothing to do with temperature this way (if the charger is any good).

I'm suspecting that 90% in a different way. 'Warm' batteries gives out higher voltage, so if something is fully charged then later on it can become overcharged if warmed up. At summer it was common sight to see my phone at 100% in the morning, and it was still at 100% after some hours since the temperature kept climbing. At the end of the summer I had to replace the battery. With the new battery I kept the charge at 80-90%, and even so it climbed up to 95% by the time I arrived to the office. Then the AC brought it back to 80%.

 

[Pleonasm]

90% has nothing to do with temperature this way (if the charger is any good).
.

A lion battery running at a 90- 100% level in your smartphone is not warmer (all else equal) than one at 60-70%?

 

[Rive]

I did not notice so far that temperature would depend on charge level, either for charge or usage.

 

[Pleonasm]

I did not notice so far that temperature would depend on charge level, either for charge or usage.

Then how come the recommended levels are to be in the ranges 40-80% for daily use and not 50-90 or 60-100?

 

[Pleonasm]

90% has nothing to do with temperature this way (if the charger is any good).
.

"Li-ion does not need to be fully charged as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge because a high voltage stresses the battery. Choosing a lower voltage threshold or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life but this reduces the runtime. Chargers for consumer products go for maximum capacity and cannot be adjusted; extended service life is perceived less important."

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

 

[Drakkith]

A lion battery running at a 90- 100% level in your smartphone is not warmer (all else equal) than one at 60-70%?

No. Why do you think that they might be? Are you thinking that the degradation of the battery is solely because of heat? If so, then that is incorrect. The battery is degraded just from regular use (charging and discharging).

Then how come the recommended levels are to be in the ranges 40-80% for daily use and not 50-90 or 60-100?

For exactly the reason you mentioned in post #67. Too high of a voltage, or too low of a voltage, degrades the battery. Below are a few quotes from articles that go into more depth about what causes lithium-ion batteries to degrade.

As Lithium-ion batteries discharge, the lithium ions (Li+) carry an electrical charge from the anode to the cathode across a non-aqueous electrolyte. This is what powers your phone. It is not a perfectly repeatable system though, and each time the lithium ions move through the battery, they cause minute changes to the electrodes' physical structures. This is what eventually kills your battery's capacity.

"As the lithium ions race through the reaction layers, they cause clumping crystallization—a kind of rock-salt matrix builds up over time and begins limiting performance," Xin said. "We found that these structures tended to form along the lithium-ion reaction channels, which we directly visualized under the TEM [transmission electron microscope - ed]. The effect was even more pronounced at higher voltages, explaining the more rapid deterioration."

https://gizmodo.com/scientists-solved-the-mystery-of-why-rechargeable-batte-1583247838

During charge, lithium gravitates to the graphite anode (negative electrode) and the voltage potential changes. Removing the lithium again during discharge does not reset the battery fully. A film called solid electrolyte interface (SEI) consisting of lithium atoms forms on the surface of the anode. Composed of lithium oxide and lithium carbonate, the SEI layer grows as the battery cycles. The film gets thicker and eventually forms a barrier that obstructs interaction with graphite. (See BU-701 How to Prime Batteries)

The cathode (positive electrode) develops a similar restrictive layer known as electrolyte oxidation. Dr. Dahn stresses that a voltage above 4.10V/cell at elevated temperature causes this, a demise that can be more harmful than cycling a battery. The longer the battery stays in a high voltage, the faster the degradation occurs.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die

The higher-capacity degradation is related to the parasitic reactions that occur at higher temperatures, whereby loss of active material and lithium-ion become determining factors. This observation has been confirmed by the increase of the internal resistance, whereby the main contributor is the growth of the solid electrolyte interface. Furthermore, the experimental results show that higher SoC levels have a negative impact on the battery capacity degradation compared to lower SoC levels (e.g., 25%). From the performed analysis, one can conclude that a lithium-ion battery should be kept in a temperature range lower than 40 °C and 75% SoC during its calendar life for guaranteeing long lifetime of the battery.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9781782420903000092

"Li-ion does not need to be fully charged as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge because a high voltage stresses the battery. Choosing a lower voltage threshold or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life but this reduces the runtime. Chargers for consumer products go for maximum capacity and cannot be adjusted; extended service life is perceived less important."

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

That has nothing to do with temperature, so I don't know why you quoted Rive's post and answered him with this.

 

[Pleonasm]

That has nothing to do with temperature, so I don't know why you quoted Rive's post and answered him with this.

It's at any rate answer to your question why it's not desirable to have it charged at 90% levels.

 

[Pleonasm]

" Choosing a lower voltage threshold or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life but this reduces the runtime"

What does elminating saturation charge mean? Is it the same as avoiding large difference between various levels of charge?

 

[Drakkith]

What does elminating saturation charge mean?

Saturation charge is the part of the charge cycle that charges the battery the last 30 percent or so. While charging, the charge current is flat for roughly the first 70% of the charge cycle while voltage across the cells increases. Around 70% charge the voltage flattens out and the current begins to drop. It's stage 2 in the graph below.

Eliminating the saturation charge prolongs the battery life, but reduces battery capacity by about 30-40%.

 

[Pleonasm]

Saturation charge is the part of the charge cycle that charges the battery the last 30 percent or so. While charging, the charge current is flat for roughly the first 70% of the charge cycle while voltage across the cells increases. Around 70% charge the voltage flattens out and the current begins to drop. It's stage 2 in the graph below.

View attachment 232035

Eliminating the saturation charge prolongs the battery life, but reduces battery capacity by about 30-40%.

So it's better to keep lion batteries at 70% charge maximum if you want to prolong overall lifespan out of them them. My threshold was 75-76%..based on the storage /charge-discharge data.

 

[Drakkith]

So it's better to keep lion batteries at 70% charge maximum if you want to prolong overall life span out of them them. My threshold was 75-76%..based on the storage /charge-discharge data.

Yep.

 

[Pleonasm]

Yep.

And keep recharges as short as possible right? So say I can pick between recharge every 10% drop vs 20%, I should opt for every 10%.. due to the tear on the battery from the recharging process itself (kinda like someone being tortured/stretched)?

 

[Pleonasm]

Interestingly, qualm colm fast charger slows down after 75% treshold, not 70%

 

[Drakkith]

And keep recharges as short as possible right? So say I can pick between recharge every 10% drop vs 20%, I should opt for every 10%.. due to the tear on the battery from the recharging process itself (kinda like someone being tortured/stretched)?

I haven't read anything that says to keep charges at a small percent. I'm not exactly sure how the battery would behave, but I know it would still degrade.

 

[Pleonasm]

I haven't read anything that says to keep charges at a small percent. I'm not exactly sure how the battery would behave, but I know it would still degrade.

Well I have read to rather charge sparingly and often, than seldom and extensively. Some of the information online however regarding these matters is not accepted science.

 

[Rada Demorn]

From my experience the only parameter out of many mentioned above guaranteed to kill your battery sooner, is the fast charger supplied by the manufacturer of your phone.

Because of planned obsolescence the factory doesn't care if their product dies in your hands about a couple of years after purchase. They only want your money and their plan is simple:

1. Non-replaceable batteries. ( You can't control this. )
2. Reduced capacity of battery -- look at the ridiculously low Amph on gigantic I-phones ( You can't control this. )
3. A fast charger ( "dedicated to your needs" har, har ) which will fry your battery charging it at a voltage 10-20% more than is needed.

So, you are left with option 3 to throw away all of their fast chargers and replace them with good old slow ones working at a lower voltage. And more so:

Your battery won't fill to its full capacity then, which is good.
You won't charge it so many cycles because of the extended amount of time for each full charge, which is good.
You won't raise its temperature much neither in charging nor while it's working, which is good.

So which method of all mentioned above in this thread do you prefer?

 

[Pleonasm]

From my experience the only parameter out of many mentioned above guaranteed to kill your battery sooner, is the fast charger supplied by the manufacturer of your phone.

Because of planned obsolescence the factory doesn't care if their product dies in your hands about a couple of years after purchase. They only want your money and their plan is simple:

1. Non-replaceable batteries. ( You can't control this. )
2. Reduced capacity of battery -- look at the ridiculously low Amph on gigantic I-phones ( You can't control this. )
3. A fast charger ( "dedicated to your needs" har, har ) which will fry your battery charging it at a voltage 10-20% more than is needed.

So, you are left with option 3 to throw away all of their fast chargers and replace them with good old slow ones working at a lower voltage. And more so:

Your battery won't fill to its full capacity then, which is good.
You won't charge it so many cycles because of the extended amount of time for each full charge, which is good.
You won't raise its temperature much neither in charging nor while it's working, which is good.

So which method of all mentioned above in this thread do you prefer?

I'm sorry but you are terribly misinformed with regards to quick chargers

"As long as we're all still using lithium-ion batteries in smartphones, the potential for anything negative to happen with your battery is no different with Quick Charge than it is through any other charger, which is to say next to zero as long as the battery isn't being abused."

Here's what Qualcomm had to say on the subject when we asked them:

"Quick Charge 2.0 does not change the way battery charging takes place today. The level of the current going into the battery is controlled by the OEM and depends on battery capacity, battery type, and other factors. Quick Charge 2.0 allows device manufacturers to achieve the full rated capability of the batteries they choose while still meeting the performance and safety standards set by the battery manufacturer. With Quick Charge 2.0, the life of large-format batteries (2000mAh and above) will be in line with that of smaller format batteries charging from traditional USB chargers."

https://www.androidcentral.com/what-qualcomm-quick-charge

 

[Pleonasm]

[

Without technical knowledge about them specifically, the claim is YES. Just by personal experience.
I had a device with a rechargeable battery packed in. I tried using it 6 years after purchase.. No keep of charge; useless. On the other hand, similar device having been in daily use for more than 7 years still useful. The older device will not keep its charge too long upon recharge, but it still does take a charge and can be used while the one which was stored without use for 6 years became useless. Charging it has no effect - dead!(small edit on oct 9 2018)

Many thanks. How much of a runtime degradation has the 7 year old one gotten, and how was your usage these 7 years in total? Were you using it very conservatively, or simply charging it cleverly for 7 years?

 

[Pleonasm]

Now on this issue of storing. Suppose I purchase brand specific Lion batteries dated may 2017 ... Could I charge them up after X amount of time without having to put them in a smartphone? And how often would I ned to boot them up, you think? Storing clearly degrades more than (clever) usage..
The user above testifies to that with 6 year old stored/unused batteries rendered useless, unlike the active 7 year olds!

Also where is the best physical location in your home to store Lion batteries?

 

[Pleonasm]

Btw, I recently learned I had my own Lenovo Tablet dated 2014 still working. It has been inactive for a total of maybe 8 months of those 4 years. Now interestingly, this thing has been constantly running at 15-30% since inception due to the slow chargers/impatience.

Runtime after 4 years is still roughly the same(!). The runtime due to wear and tear is not noticeable enough for me to give any numbers, but it still delivers fairly solid life. Has occasional quirks but by and large very functional.

 

[Pleonasm]

What is the relationship between battery charge level and temperature?

As far as I now, the issue with the charge-discharge cycle is that it the chemical reactions inside the battery gradually break down the battery. This happens to some extent for any charge-discharge cycle, regardless of whether it is a 10% cycle or a 100% cycle.

This is from Apple, who I presume uses standard lions...

"You complete one charge cycle when you’ve used (discharged) an amount that equals 100% of your battery’s capacity — but not necessarily all from one charge"

You claimed that a full cycle is not possible by a constant 10% recharge...

 

[Drakkith]

You claimed that a full cycle is not possible by a constant 10% recharge...

Then perhaps I was mistaken.

 

[Pleonasm]

Then perhaps I was mistaken.

Perhaps not. Apple contradicts itself..

“After 400 complete cycles, the iPhone’s battery still has 80 percent of its charged capacity,” Joswiak said. “And by a complete charge cycle, I mean completely draining the battery, a full chemical cycle.” In other words, using a little battery and then putting your iPhone back in its dock doesn’t count as a charge cycle. If you use a quarter of your iPhone’s battery and then re-charge it, Joswiak said, that’s the equivalent of a quarter of a charge cycle.

“If you top it off, you’re not wasting a charge cycle,” Joswiak said.

I'm confused

 

[CWatters]

There is a lot of good info here...

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Table 2 suggests avoiding deep discharges is a good way to prolong life.

 

[Drakkith]

I'm confused

Join the club.

 

[Pleonasm]

There is a lot of good info here...

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Table 2 suggests avoiding deep discharges is a good way to prolong life.

Oh, yes, that part I'm familiar with. It doesn't state what happens to the potential cycles if I recharge it every 1 or 5%, though... How does that affect nr of (potential) cycles? And it doesn't state how consistently I have to follow the depth of discharge levels. What if I sometimes don't? How often do I need to follow it in order to affect cycle lifes in a positive way?

 

[CWatters]

That site appears down at the moment but graph here suggests you shouldn't fully charge or discharge. Eg cycle your cells in the narrow range between 75% and 45% full.

https://www.reddit.com/r/windowsphone/comments/81pp8o/how_to_prolong_lithiumbased_batteries_battery/

 

[Pleonasm]

That site appears down at the moment but graph here suggests you shouldn't fully charge or discharge. Eg cycle your cells in the narrow range between 75% and 45% full.

https://www.reddit.com/r/windowsphone/comments/81pp8o/how_to_prolong_lithiumbased_batteries_battery/

Suppose I charge every 10% for maximum amount of cycles. That doesn't take into account that there is probably some amount of maximum amount of charges possible before the battery/phone/ breaks down, making the increasing cycles irrelevant.

 

[anorlunda]

That doesn't take into account that there is probably some amount of maximum amount of charges possible before the battery/phone/ breaks down

I think you are trying to take those statements too literally and expecting more precision than is possible.

Cycles are a factor in life, so is state of charge, so is temperature, there may be other factors. Then, holding all those factors constant, there will be a random distribution of actual lifetimes. The random variance may be larger than the named factors.

In the case of Apple, it sounds like they threw a number out there for lifetime in cycles without mentioning other factors. Then some non-technical person pressed with customer questions about what defines a cycle just made up a bunch of words to make the question go away. IMO, one should take all those things with a grain of salt.

 

[CWatters]

Suppose I charge every 10% for maximum amount of cycles. That doesn't take into account that there is probably some amount of maximum amount of charges possible before the battery/phone/ breaks down, making the increasing cycles irrelevant.

Look at it this way. Let's say you currently recharge every night. A reasonable question would be …

Q: Is it better to recharge at lunchtime as well, even if you don't need to? Will this give your battery a longer life (eg more years).
A: The answer appears to be yes...

Lets say you currently charge at night and run you phone down to 20% remaining during the daytime. That's a DoD of 80%. Table 2 reproduced below says that if you keep doing that your Li battery will last about 900 cycles = 900 days.

Source:https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

However if you recharge at lunchtime as well your average DoD will only be 40% and your battery will live for 3000 cycles. However you would be doing two cycles a day instead of one so that works out at 3000/2 = 1500 days.

So by charging twice a day instead of once you might increase battery life from 900 to 1500 days.

PS: Figure 6 at that link also explains that you can also gain battery life by not fully recharging each time. In other words try and only use the "middle" part of the cells capacity. Easier said than done.

 

[Pleonasm]

Look at it this way. Let's say you currently recharge every night. A reasonable question would be …

Q: Is it better to recharge at lunchtime as well, even if you don't need to? Will this give your battery a longer life (eg more years).
A: The answer appears to be yes...

Lets say you currently charge at night and run you phone down to 20% remaining during the daytime. That's a DoD of 80%. Table 2 reproduced below says that if you keep doing that your Li battery will last about 900 cycles = 900 days.

Source:https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

View attachment 236665

However if you recharge at lunchtime as well your average DoD will only be 40% and your battery will live for 3000 cycles. However you would be doing two cycles a day instead of one so that works out at 3000/2 = 1500 days.

So by charging twice a day instead of once you might increase battery life from 900 to 1500 days.

PS: Figure 6 at that link also explains that you can also gain battery life by not fully recharging each time. In other words try and only use the "middle" part of the cells capacity. Easier said than done.

But don't you think its a very clear finite number of times the battery can receive the voltage input (charging)? Can a Lion Battery withstand daily top-offs for years,? Say I recharge a lion battery 10% 10 times every day for years, you don't think it will break down sooner from overcharging, than if I only charged it once every three days (suppose my usage was limited).

 

[anorlunda]

@Pleonasm , you are exhausting the patience of people who have been trying to help you with 93 posts on this simple question, yet the last post circles back to the first.

The answer to every one of your questions can be found at batteryuniversity.com.

Thread closed.