Stored Lithium-ion batteries self exterminate after 2-3 years?

[Drakkith]

The citation suggests that active (that is non stored) lion batteries suffer diminished capacities regardless of use. Is this in fact true?

Of course. If the batteries are deteriorating over time even in storage, putting them into use doesn't somehow stop this. In fact it makes them deteriorate faster through the charge/discharge process and the more variable environments that batteries are used in.

The sources I gave demonstrate that different charging routines affect lifespan.

Why do the folks in the citation write that different usage is irrelevant on a 5 year span, when this is clearly not the case in the testings?

Are you referring to your link in post #28? I don't see where it said that the usage is irrelevant.

 

[Pleonasm]

Of course. If the batteries are deteriorating over time even in storage, putting them into use doesn't somehow stop this.

I mean suffer diminished capacity "of the same ratio" regardless of use (all else equal). This is false. Different charging routines and stamina settings on ones phone prolong battery quality/life. Could the citation simply be outdated?

 

[Drakkith]

I mean suffer diminished capacity "of the same ratio" regardless of use (all else equal). This is false. Different charging routines and stamina settings on ones phone prolong battery quality/life. Could the citation simply be outdated?

I don't see where the citation said anything like this.

 

[Pleonasm]

I don't see where it said that the usage is irrelevant.

Perhaps I didn't take "do not avoid using" literal enough. They probably referred to storage vs usage only. Not different levels of usage.

 

[Pleonasm]

Btw, speaking of capacity, I noticed that worn-out Lion Batteries are slower to charge up, regardless of it's a quick charge or not. Are you guys aware of this phenomenon?

It doesn't help to have a charger nearby, it takes ages to recharge...

 

[Drakkith]

Perhaps I didn't take "do not avoid using" literal enough. They probably referred to storage vs usage only. Not different levels of usage.

For starters, I don't even know which citation you're referring to. You need to clearly state which citation you're talking about. I thought you were talking about the link in post #28. The link in your original post is saying don't leave your batteries in storage for years expecting them to perform as if they were brand new.

Btw, speaking of capacity, I noticed that worn-out Lion Batteries are slower to charge up, regardless of it's a quick charge or not. Are you guys aware of this phenomenon?

I haven't noticed this with any of my old devices, but I suppose its possible.

 

[Pleonasm]

For starters, I don't even know which citation you're referring to. You need to clearly state which citation you're talking about. I thought you were talking about the link in post #28. The link in your original post is saying don't leave your batteries in storage for years expecting them to perform as if they were brand new.

I'm referring to the original citation. Now the data on how to optimize lion battery capacity in usage suggests that they should be kept between 75 and 65% if I am reading this correctly.

"The smallest capacity loss is attained by charging Li-ion to 75 percent and discharging to 65 percent"

Aren't 75-65% charge levels quite hot batteries relatively speaking? Why not between 40 and 50 %or 50 and 60%?

 

[Drakkith]

Isn't 65-75% charge levels quite hot batteries relatively speaking? Why not between 40 and 50%?

Couldn't tell you.

 

[Pleonasm]

Couldn't tell you.

But did I read that properly? A user is adviced to keep the batteries between 75 and 65% permanently?

 

[Pleonasm]

The 75-65% optimization result is from here https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

[Drakkith]

But did I read that properly? A user is adviced to keep the batteries between 75 and 65% permanently?

For storage. You obviously can't keep it in that range if you're using it. For example, the batteries for my lawn mower and string trimmer only get used one every week or two, so I should store them within that range if I want to get the best lifetime out of them. Of course, that's practically impossible since I have no way of easily charging it to 75%.

If you're using a phone, tablet, laptop, or other similar device it's really not possible to keep them between 75% and 65%, so you're just going to have to accept that your batteries are going to deteriorate slightly faster than they might otherwise.

 

[Pleonasm]

If you're using a phone, tablet, laptop, or other similar device it's really not possible to keep them between 75% and 65%, so you're just going to have to accept that your batteries are going to deteriorate slightly faster than they might otherwise.

Fairly easy with a quick charger with you to keep it around those figures. Sony claims the quick charger will not hurt their battery.

 

[Drakkith]

Fairly easy with a quick charger with you to keep it around those figures.

If you want to constantly be watching you battery status. But I don't consider that to be easy or convenient.

 

[Rive]

Is this claim substantied by facts?

Well, way back I made some cash by buying up a bunch of cheap 'new, defunct' stuff from the local auctioneer with dead batteries and selling them after replacing the battery, so kind of 'yes'.

However, that 2-3 year is a bit short. It might have been be correct when the Li-ion was new, but by my experience these days any decent (not the cheapest ones from the Chinese online stores - for those maybe one year, and even that starts at 50% capacity) battery will last (I mean: still usable) for at least 4-5 years if handled/stored with care.

 

[Pleonasm]

Well, way back I made some cash by buying up a bunch of cheap 'new, defunct' stuff from the local auctioneer with dead batteries and selling them after replacing the battery, so kind of 'yes'.

However, that 2-3 year is a bit short. It might have been be correct when the Li-ion was new, but by my experience these days any decent (not the cheapest ones from the Chinese online stores - for those maybe one year, and even that starts at 50% capacity) battery will last (I mean: still usable) for at least 4-5 years if handled/stored with care.

That has been my experience too. Do you have any insight on using non original lion batteries in electronic equipment? I can't find any info on whether it's feasible or not.

 

[Rive]

Do you have any insight on using non original lion batteries in electronic equipment? I can't find any info on whether it's feasible or not.

Always depends on the actual case. The only thing common is that you have to be very careful.
Also, recently it is getting more and more troublesome so it's often better to find parts from other damaged equipment instead of buying from sources with unknown reliability.

For my old tablet (which I'm really reluctant to let go) I got two sets of replacement from China (the only place I could find components): one was ~ 60% of the nominal capacity (I mean, 60% of the the original 5Ah: on the sticker it was 10Ah - guess somebody believed it as an additive parameter for two cells...), and without any decent balancer on the two prismatic cells, so the replacement lasted only three months. The second was also ~60%, but I've moved the balancer from the original battery right after unwrapping the package so it lasted three months longer. Finally, I've bought an identical tablet with broken screen. The capacity of the battery was still around 90% and this was already a year ago.

 

[Pleonasm]

Always depends on the actual case. The only thing common is that you have to be very careful.
Also, recently it is getting more and more troublesome so it's often better to find parts from other damaged equipment instead of buying from sources with unknown reliability.

For my old tablet (which I'm really reluctant to let go) I got two sets of replacement from China (the only place I could find components): one was ~ 60% of the nominal capacity (I mean, 60% of the the original 5Ah: on the sticker it was 10Ah - guess somebody believed it as an additive parameter for two cells...), and without any decent balancer on the two prismatic cells, so the replacement lasted only three months. The second was also ~60%, but I've moved the balancer from the original battery right after unwrapping the package so it lasted three months longer. Finally, I've bought an identical tablet with broken screen. The capacity of the battery was still around 90% and this was already a year ago.

Don't you think a mechanic in a work-shop could determine whether the foreign battery with more or less mAh, and what not, would pose a problem?

 

[Rive]

Don't you think a mechanic in a work-shop could determine whether the foreign battery with more or less mAh, and what not, would pose a problem?

To properly check a battery is not witchcraft, but you have to buy it first and then if it's not OK it's already late...

In any case I would go for an identical one first, and I would stick to that for months before giving up and resort to more-or-less kind of solutions.

 

[Pleonasm]

If you want to constantly be watching you battery status. But I don't consider that to be easy or convenient.

But to another point I don't get, the number of full cycles would occur faster if I were to charge it every 10%... and reach the maximum charge cycle treshold faster than If I charged it more conservatively

 

[Drakkith]

But to another point I don't get, the number of full cycles would occur faster if I were to charge it every 10%... and reach the maximum charge cycle treshold faster than If I charged it more conservatively

That's not a full cycle.

 

[Pleonasm]

That's not a full cycle.

I would reach full cycles (100% charging) faster If I charge it every 10% drop with 10% (from 65 to 75%). There's an 80% drop in performance once a certain number of full cycles have been reached.

 

[Drakkith]

I would reach full cycles (100% charging) faster If I charge it every 10% drop with 10% (from 65 to 75%).

A 10% charge is not a full cycle, no matter how many times you do it. I honestly can't tell you how the battery would behave.

 

[anorlunda]

This may not be relevant to the OP's problem, but I discovered the hard way that I was mistreating batteries.

At the time, I was living on a sailboat which is subject to vigorous wave action. I had devilish problems with rechargeable NiMh and Li batteries. They would last only a month or two. After several years, I figured it out.

The smart battery chargers would automatically cut off when full charge is reached. But vibrations, or shaking the charger caused the logic to reset. Then it would apply full charge current for a few minutes when it figured out again that it had full charge. But if the shaking reset the logic every 20-30 seconds, then the overcharge never ceases. I finally figured it out because the batteries in the charger became too hot to touch. Putting the charger horizontal on a cushion instead of mounting it vertically on the wall solved the problems.

 

[Pleonasm]

A 10% charge is not a full cycle, no matter how many times you do it. I honestly can't tell you how the battery would behave.

I don't get it. If that's the case, there would be no way of achieving a full cycle without a full discharge and then recharge to 100.

 

[Drakkith]

I don't get it. If that's the case, there would be no way of achieving a full cycle without a full discharge and then recharge to 100.

What don't you get?

 

[Pleonasm]

What don't you get?

If I can't get a full cycle out of constant 10% charge and discharge , and lion batteries functionality is defined by a certain number of full cycles (they deteriorate 80% after a certain number of full cyles), then a Lion battery couldn't possibly deteriorate, ever, in the event of me by me doing 10% charge and discharges ad infinitum?

 

[Drakkith]

I I can't get a full cycle out of constant 10% charge and discharge , and lion batteries functionality is defined by a certain number of full cycles (they deteriorate 80% after a certain number of full cyles), then a Lion battery couldn't possibly deteriorate, ever, in the event of me by me doing 10% charge and discharges ad infinitum?

...do you really believe that?

 

[Pleonasm]

...do you really believe that?

What other conclusion can I draw from your statement if Lion batteries functionalites are defined by their number of full cycles (assuming proper storage).

 

[Drakkith]

What other conclusion can I draw from your statement if Lion batteries functionalites are defined by their number of full cycles (assuming proper storage).

What you should take from my statement is that a 10% charge is not a full charge and that I don't exactly how the battery will behave. I don't know how you got the idea that only a full charge results in degradation. If that were the case, wouldn't the standard procedure be to just charge your battery to 90% or so instead of a full charge?

 

[Pleonasm]

What you should take from my statement is that a 10% charge is not a full charge and that I don't exactly how the battery will behave. I don't know how you got the idea that only a full charge results in degradation. If that were the case, wouldn't the standard procedure be to just charge your battery to 90% or so instead of a full charge?

The batteries are too warm at 90% (heat kills battery). If you keep them around 75-65%, they will be neither hot nor cold. Depending on your phone model and usage, it would not neccesarily get warm from everyday usage.