Strange Relationships of the Circle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationships between the area and perimeter of a circle, specifically examining how the ratios of surface area to length (S/L) and their variations with radius size can be understood. The conversation touches on mathematical errors in provided tables and the implications of unit differences in these ratios.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the ratios S/L and {[S/L]/R} can vary with radius size, questioning how a circle can maintain its properties while these ratios change.
  • Others argue that the ratios are not unitless, as S has units of length squared and L has units of length, leading to different behaviors when dimensions are altered.
  • Several participants point out errors in the provided tables, specifically regarding the perimeter calculations and the values of S/L for certain radii.
  • A participant suggests using different symbols for area and length to avoid confusion, advocating for A for area and P or C for perimeter or circumference.
  • Some participants emphasize the need for correct algebraic manipulation to derive the ratios accurately, indicating that S/L simplifies to R/2 under certain conditions.
  • There is a repeated assertion that S and L can numerically equal each other but differ in units, which is not clearly represented in the tables.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the accuracy of the tables and the interpretation of the ratios. There is no consensus on the correct values or the implications of the relationships discussed.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential arithmetic errors in the tables, unresolved mathematical steps in deriving the ratios, and the dependence on definitions of the symbols used for area and length.

dom_quixote
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PHOTOGRAPHIC REDUCTION OR ENLARGEMENT
magno.JPG


The proportions of a circle never change. But...

radius.JPG


Question:
If a circle is always a circle, then how is it possible that the S/L and {[S/L]/R} ratios of a circle can vary as a function of the radius size?
 
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Because they aren't unitless quantities. S has units of length squared and L has units of length, so when you double the length, they don't change the same way.
 
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There are errors in your table for the perimeter. It should read 2/5π and 3/5π 2/3π for the first two. And S/L for R=1/2 is 1/4, not 1.
 
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jack action said:
There are errors in your table for the perimeter. It should read 2/5π and 3/5π for the first two. And S/L for R=1/2 is 1/4, not 1.
##\frac 2 3 \pi## ?
 
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dom_quixote said:
If a circle is always a circle, then how is it possible that the S/L and {[S/L]/R} ratios of a circle can vary as a function of the radius size?
Try it with a square if you have problems understanding it for a circle. It's more a geometry question rather than physics.

Related topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square–cube_law
 
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There are many basic arithmetic errors in your charts. The [S/L]/R column should always be 1/2, for instance.
 
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In fact, I made a mistake :sorry:.
The corrected table is below:

rad_corr.JPG


Note in the TABLE I a singularity, when R=2/1:
S = L ?
Certainly not!
S expresses area;
L expresses length.

P.S.:
If there is another error in the table, I apologize for my numerical dyslexia :wink:!
 
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How about applying some simple algebra before you make the tables?
Since ##S=\pi R^2## and ##L=2 \pi R## then ##\frac{S}{L} = \frac{\pi R^2}{2 \pi R} = \frac{R}{2}## and ##\frac{(\frac{S}{L})}{R} = \frac{1}{2}##.
That is all there is to this, now you can correct your tables.
 
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dom_quixote said:
S = L ?
Certainly not!
S expresses area;
L expresses length.
They can have have the same numerical value (which is what your table shows), but different units (which your table doesn't show).

dom_quixote said:
If there is another error in the table, I apologize for my numerical dyslexia :wink:!
See post #6 and #8.
 
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  • #10
dom_quixote said:
Note in the TABLE I a singularity, when R=2/1:
S = L ?
Certainly not!
S expresses area;
L expresses length.
Why don't you use letters that more closely align with what they represent?
R is fine for radius, but why are you using S for area and L for length? Better would be A for area and P or C for either perimeter or circumference.
DaveE said:
How about applying some simple algebra before you make the tables?
Or even some simple arithmetic.
You have errors in the first two rows of table 1.
##2\pi \frac 1 5 \ne \frac{5\pi} 2##
##2\pi \frac 1 3 \ne \frac{3\pi} 2##
 
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  • #11
The initial questions have been asked and answered, so I'm closing this thread.
 
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