Subgroups/Internal Direct Product

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of subgroups and normal subgroups within the context of group theory, specifically focusing on matrices of size (2n+1) and their determinants. The original poster attempts to prove that certain sets of matrices form subgroups and explore the conditions under which these sets interact.

Discussion Character

  • Mixed

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the conditions for a set of matrices to be a subgroup, including the necessity of non-zero determinants and the closure under matrix operations. There are attempts to clarify the implications of determinant properties and the relationship between different matrices in the groups.

Discussion Status

Some participants have provided guidance on the correctness of the original poster's reasoning, particularly regarding the calculation of determinants and the implications of negative values. There is an ongoing exploration of alternative approaches to ensure that certain conditions hold true, with participants questioning assumptions and suggesting different mathematical roots.

Contextual Notes

There is a noted concern regarding the nature of the determinant, particularly in relation to whether it can be negative, which affects the validity of certain steps in the proof. The discussion also highlights the need for clarity in representing matrices and their properties in the context of the problem.

Ted123
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Homework Statement



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The Attempt at a Solution



[itex]<[/itex] denotes a subgroup and [itex]\triangleleft[/itex] denotes a normal subgroup throughout.

Can anyone tell me what I've done right/wrong? I've posted all my working below:

To prove that [itex]A<G[/itex], I can say that:

A [itex](2n+1) \times (2n+1)[/itex] matrix is invertible if and only if it has non-zero determinant so [itex]A \subset G[/itex].

Furthermore, [itex]A[/itex] is non-empty since [itex]I_{2n+1} \in A[/itex] since [itex]\text{det}(I_{2n+1})=1[/itex].

To prove that [itex]CD^{-1} \in A[/itex] for all [itex]C,D \in A[/itex] is this correct?:

Let [itex]C,D \in A[/itex]. Then [itex]\text{det}(C)=\text{det}(D)=1[/itex]. Now by the properties of determinants,

[itex]\displaystyle \text{det}(CD^{-1}) = \text{det}(C)\text{det}(D^{-1}) = \frac{\text{det}(C)}{\text{det}(D)} = \frac{1}{1} = 1[/itex] .

So [itex]CD^{-1} \in A[/itex] and [itex]A<G[/itex].

Now suppose [itex]P \in G[/itex] and [itex]Q \in A[/itex]

Then [itex]\text{det}(PQP^{-1}) = \text{det}(P)\text{det}(Q)\text{det}(P^{-1}) = \text{det}(P)\text{det}(Q)\text{det}(P)^{-1} = \text{det}(Q) = 1[/itex] .

Therefore [itex]A \triangleleft G[/itex] .

Now [itex]B \neq \emptyset[/itex] since [itex]I\in B[/itex] (set u=1) .

If [itex]U = \begin{bmatrix}u & 0 & \ldots & 0 \\ 0 & u & \ldots & 0 \\ \vdots & \vdots & \ddots & \vdots\\0 & 0 &\ldots & u\end{bmatrix} \in B[/itex] and if [itex]V = \begin{bmatrix}v & 0 & \ldots & 0 \\ 0 & v & \ldots & 0 \\ \vdots & \vdots & \ddots & \vdots\\0 & 0 &\ldots & v\end{bmatrix} \in B[/itex]

Then [itex]UV^{-1} = \begin{bmatrix}uv^{-1} & 0 & \ldots & 0 \\ 0 & uv^{-1} & \ldots & 0 \\ \vdots & \vdots & \ddots & \vdots\\0 & 0 &\ldots & uv^{-1}\end{bmatrix} \in B[/itex]

so that [itex]B < G[/itex] .

If [itex]P\in G[/itex] is a [itex](2n+1) \times (2n+1)[/itex] matrix of the same size of U with arbitrary entries then [itex]UP=PU[/itex] and it follows that [itex]PUP^{-1} = U[/itex] . Hence [itex]B \triangleleft G[/itex] .

Now since [itex]\text{det}(U) = u^{2n+1}[/itex] and [itex]u\neq 0[/itex] it follows that if [itex]U \in A[/itex] then [itex]u=1[/itex] .

Therefore [itex]A \cap B = \{1\}[/itex] .

Let [itex]\text{det}(P) = r \neq 0[/itex] .

Then [itex]P =[/itex] [The matrix P with every element divided by [itex]\sqrt{r}[/itex] ] [itex]\begin{bmatrix}\sqrt{r} & 0 & \ldots & 0 \\ 0 & \sqrt{r} & \ldots & 0 \\ \vdots & \vdots & \ddots & \vdots\\0 & 0 &\ldots & \sqrt{r} \end{bmatrix} = QU[/itex] (say)

We have [itex]Q \in A[/itex] for [itex]\displaystyle \text{det}(Q)= \frac{\text{det}(P)}{r} = 1[/itex] and [itex]U \in B[/itex].

Therefore [itex]G=AB[/itex] and G is the internal direct product of A and B.
 
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Ted123 said:
We have [itex]Q \in A[/itex] for [itex]\displaystyle \text{det}(Q)= \frac{\text{det}(P)}{r} = 1[/itex] and [itex]U \in B[/itex].

This is not true. It would rather be

[tex]\text{det}(Q)=\frac{\text{det}(P)}{(\sqrt{r})^{2n+1}}[/tex].

So you'll need something else then [tex]\sqrt{r}[/tex], but you're on the right track.

Also, nobody says that [tex]r\geq 0[/tex], thus it might be that [tex]\sqrt{r}[/tex] is not real. In that case, U is not an element of [tex]GL_{2n+1}(\mathbb{R})[/tex]...
 
micromass said:
This is not true. It would rather be

[tex]\text{det}(Q)=\frac{\text{det}(P)}{(\sqrt{r})^{2n+1}}[/tex].

So you'll need something else then [tex]\sqrt{r}[/tex], but you're on the right track.

Also, nobody says that [tex]r\geq 0[/tex], thus it might be that [tex]\sqrt{r}[/tex] is not real. In that case, U is not an element of [tex]GL_{2n+1}(\mathbb{R})[/tex]...

What could I use that's not [itex]\sqrt{r}[/itex]?
 
Instead of dividing through [tex]\sqrt{r}[/tex], you could divide through something else. So that det(Q)=1. Try another kind of root...
 
micromass said:
Instead of dividing through [tex]\sqrt{r}[/tex], you could divide through something else. So that det(Q)=1. Try another kind of root...

Could I use [itex]\sqrt[2n+1]{r}[/itex] .

Then [itex]\text{det}(Q) = \frac{\text{det}(P)}{(\sqrt[2n+1]{r})^{2n+1}} = \frac{r}{r} = 1[/itex] .

But then r could still be negative?
 
Yes, that is correct. And r being negative doesn't hurt here. 2n+1 is an odd number, so the 2n+1-th root is real, even if r is negative...
 
micromass said:
Yes, that is correct. And r being negative doesn't hurt here. 2n+1 is an odd number, so the 2n+1-th root is real, even if r is negative...

Ah yes. So does everything look OK now?

Is there a more explicit way of putting this bit:

If [itex]P\in G[/itex] is a [itex](2n+1) \times (2n+1)[/itex] matrix of the same size of U with arbitrary entries then [itex]UP=PU[/itex] and it follows that [itex]PUP^{-1} = U[/itex] .

i.e. how can I explicitly represent the matrix P in latex and show UP=PU?
 
Yes, this looks good!

I think your statement about the P and U is clear enough. If you really want to represent P as a matrix, then maybe you can present it as an arbitrary matrix with arbitrary entries, i.e.

[tex]P=\left(\begin{array}{cccc}<br /> p_{1,1} & p_{1,2} & \hdots & p_{1,2n+1}\\<br /> p_{2,1} & p_{2,2} & \hdots & p_{2,2n+1}\\<br /> \vdots & \vdots & \ddots & \vdots\\<br /> p_{2n+1,1} & p_{2n+1,2} & \hdots & p_{2n+1,2n+1}<br /> \end{array}\right)[/tex]
 

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