I Sun gravitational lensing forces

[jv11]

TL;DR Summary

Calculation of mirror mass from light radiation pressure force and gravitational force acting on mirror inside the sun gravitational lens

The formula for angle of bent light inside the sun gravitational lens.

a=4GM/C^2xr

r= 69.7x10^8m this is the distance from center of sun to mirror.Two forces are acting on mirror:
Pressure radiation force from light reflected from Jupiter surface and gravitational force of Sun.

The formula for angle of bent light is

a=4GM/C^2xr

r= 69.7x10^8m this is the distance from center of sun to mirror

Mirror has area A=1 m^2

m=? mass of mirror is not known

a=4x6.6x10^-11 x 1.9x10^30/9x10^18x69.7x10^8

a=7.9x10^-7

The intensity of radiation of light reflected from Jupiter is

I=1.8w/m2

The radiation pressure acting on surface of mirror is

P=I/C=1.8/3x10^8=0.6x10^-8

The force acting on mirror is

Frp =6x10^-9N

The gravitational force pulling on the mirror is

Fg=Frp x tan a

And

Fg=m x g

tan a=1.37x10^-9

Fg=1.37x10^-9x 6x10^-9

Fg=8.22x10^-18N

The gravitational acceleration of Sun

g=GM/r^2

g=6.6x10^-11 x 1.9x10^30/4.8x10^19

g=2.69m/s

mass of mirror

m=Fg/g

m=8.2x10^-18/2.67

m‎ = 3.0712×10⁻¹⁸kg

The length of curvature of light path is

L=tg a x r

L=1.37x10^-9x69.7x10^8

L‎ = 9.549m

Work made by resultant force is

Ft x L=E- work

Ft^2=Frp^2 + Fg^2

Ft=Frp

E=6x10^-9x9.54

E= 5.7x10^-8J

E=mx v^2/2

V^2=5.7x10^-8/3x10^-18

V^2=1.9x10^10

V=1.37x10^5m/s

To confirm:

Centrifugal force

Fc=m x v^2/r

Fc=3x10^-18x1.86x10^10/69.7x10^8

Fc=0.08x10^18

(Fg=8.2x10^-18)********

The mirror is “pushed” in straight line by radiation pressure force - crated by reflected light from surface of Jupiter and “pulled” towards the sun by sun gravitational force.
The angle of sun gravitational lens(angle) formula is used to calculate mass .

Opinions ?

 

[Ibix]

You can in principle measure the proper acceleration from a known force to measure mass. You don't need to use gravity in your calculation anywhere. You will have major problems with radiation pressure from other sources than Jupiter - in particular the Sun.

The whole thing seems over-complicated unless there's a desperately good reason why you have to use light from Jupiter.

 

[jv11]

The Jupiter is very well known and data about Jupiter is easily found .
The Sun radiation will act on “thin” side of mirror (“upwards”) and the force created will be one millionth part of gravitational force .
The mirror traveling for 95 m will mimic the trajectory of light beam being bent and the radiation pressure force created by sun is perpendicular to radiation pressure force crated by Jupiter light.
The reason this set up is a little bit complicated is this:
The massless deflected light wave coming from Jupiter has area of 1 m^2(square 1mx1m) is going to be bent for angle a(10^-5 degrees ) for a distance
Of 95 m.
The Sun is curving time space and this curvature of time space is bending light .
The mirror traveling inside this Jupiter wave is been pushed “horizontally “by radiation pressure force
And “pulled “ down by gravitational force - the trajectory of mirror is identical to trajectory of light wave .
The mirror has mass and curvature of space time caused by gravitation of sun is not enough to mimic curved trajectory.
It takes horizontal force (Jupiter light radiation pressure force ) and curvature of time space (gravitational force) to mimic curved trajectory of massless wave .

Question:

Sun gravitational lensing is curving the space time and bending the light (masked wave )in 95 m distance .
The radiation pressure force does not affect gravitational curvature of space time .

The same space time curvature is mimicked by using two Newtonian forces acting on mirror (baryonic matter with mass).

The first force is explained as massless wave transferring momentum to the surface .
The second force is explained as a curvature of space time .



Is the momentum of massless light wave wave been transferred to curvature of space time ?
And that is the source of gravitational lens light bending ?

 

[Ibix]

I can't make much sense of what you are asking.

The major problem with using a solar sail powered by light from Jupiter that has grazed the Sun is that the Sun is much, much brighter. The noise in the radiation pressure from the Sun due to prominences and sunspots and the like will far exceed the signal you are looking for. You can just use the radiation pressure from the Sun and measure the resulting deviation of the mirror from freefall (accounting carefully for the effect of the solar wind, the interplanetary medium, micrometeor impacts and the like). That will get you the mass of the mirror. Trying to use a much dimmer source that's almost hidden behind a large and noisy source doesn't help anything.

Separately, you seem to be asking something about the interaction between light and gravity. I can't work out what you want to know, but I think it might be "is light a kind of spacetime curvature". If so, the answer is no. Attempts have been made to unify electromagnetism and gravity, but they haven't worked. Kaluza-Klein theory is a famous one which actually successfully unites gravity and electromagnetism, but also implies the existence of a scalar field that we would easily have detected if it existed so was immediately falsified. If that isn't what you want to know, I'd suggest trying to ask what you want to know in as short a question as possible. We can refine the question if necessary.

 

[jv11]

The distance 0.4AU(69x10^8m) is the closest distance to the sun achieved by satellite.
The mirror falls of of satellite and only for 9.5m(or 3x10^-5s)travels in curved trajectory mimicking the trajectory of light from Jupiter in that same spot(when mirror is not there ).
In this time/distance radiation pressure from sun hits the bottom start of mirror which is A1=1x10^-21m^2)
The intensity of sun radiation is about 8500w/m2
The Sun radiation pressure force acting on the bottom of mirror will be in magnitude of 10^-26N

This force is not going to affect the gravitational pull on mirror(10^-18N).

After 9.5 meter the mirror will be blown away and travel with solar wind away from satellite.

The light from Jupiter will continue to travel to observer at 550AU.
I hope this explains the idea of mirror Mimi ing trajectory of light.

Do you think is it good idea to use same logic for satellite circling around earth and using earth gravitational lensing to mimic light reflected form moon?
The focal point for that is 15300AU.


I did not suggest that light is space curvature .
We do not know what gravity is.

I wanted to say that gravity is space time curvature not only in name but it is mechanical obstacle which prevent mirror traveling in straight line.
The radiation pressure force pushing the mirror splits in to two components by resistance of this hard mechanical point and we perceive force we call gravitational force .

The same goes for Jupiter light - the mechanical obstacle -space time curvature - interacts with massless light wave with mechanical force - cretaed by radiation pressure of light.

Could it be that mechanism of bending light has pure mechanical nature ?

 

[phinds]

I wanted to say that gravity is space time curvature not only in name but it is mechanical obstacle which prevent mirror traveling in straight line.

No, it DOES travel in a straight line, it's just that the "straight line" is a geodesic in Reimann Geometry. You are using Euclidean Geometry, which does not apply to space-time.

Could it be that mechanism of bending light has pure mechanical nature ?

I'm not even sure what that means. What do you mean by "mechanical" ?

Light traveling on geodesics (which are "bent" only if you insist on applying Euclidean Geometry in a domain where it is not valid) is an inherent property of the geometry of space-time. That's explained in Einstein's General Relativity.

 

[jv11]

Yes I used Euclidean geometry instead of Reimann geometry becouse I used Newtonian era forces to explain gravitational lensing.
The “chunk”of curved space time (volume ) where bending of reflected Jupiter light wave occurs is
1mx1mx9.5m in size .
This volume is segment of circular radius 6.9x10^9m
It is not straight it is already curved ,but diference in length 9.5 m for curved (Reimann) and straight (Euclidean) line is negligible .
When this volume is curved more by gravitational lensing of sun - the 9.5 m distance is curved even more ,but again the difference in length is negligible .

For explaining mechanical nature :

The reflected Jupiter light hits 9.5m x1 m area on the top of volume at Alfa (10^-5 degrees ) and acts on curved time space” hard surface” exchange momentum - creating mechanical (Newtonian force)
And gets “pushed down”towards the sun .
We see this motion as a consequence of gravitational force Fg (10^-18N) .
That is force created as a component of radiation pressure force F rp(10^-8)in the text above .

Lower 9.5 x1 m area of volume is bent downwards for the same angle Alfa(a) and deflected light continue to travel to observer .

Momentum transfer between massless wave and
Unknown time space curvature - that is mechanical push of force on the wall(is this description of mechanical force )?

 

[weirdoguy]

I used Newtonian era forces to explain gravitational lensing.

And it is well known, that newtonian gravity gives wrong predictions in this context.

 

[Ibix]

I hope this explains the idea of mirror Mimi ing trajectory of light.

So you're just planning to release a mirror on an orbit that is more or less the same as the orbit of light from Jupiter. I don't understand why.

I wanted to say that gravity is space time curvature not only in name but it is mechanical obstacle which prevent mirror traveling in straight line.

If you want to model gravity as anything other than spacetime curvature then you need to explain its effects on clocks. Why do they tick slower or faster on different orbits? And where do phenomena like Shapiro delay come from while light's speed is locally constant? Replacing curved spacetime with something else is a really hard problem, and you really need to understand what all the experimental constraints are before you try, or you're wasting everyone's time. That's why we don't do theory development here.

I used Newtonian era forces to explain gravitational lensing

As @weirdoguy noted above, a Newtonian model of the universe has been thoroughly falsified. For example, the frame invariance of the speed of light is well tested experimentally, and is utterly inexplicable in Newtonian terms, as well as being incompatible with a Newtonian model of gravity.

I get that thinking about this stuff is interesting and you want to develop hypotheses, but you actually need to understand our current models and how the experimental evidence limits the options before there's any chance of making a meaningful contribution.

 

[jv11]

I would like to thank you for giving me valuable points
This is not new theory I just wanted to ask :is it possible that as Einstein said gravity is curvature of space time and light is not just following the curve trajectory - it is forced to follow the curvature by interacting with light wave by momentum exchange ?

The clock hands ,the x ray traveling around planets they are delayed becouse they forced to follow curves of time space .
That is why I used mirror with mass pushed on the same trajectory as Jupiter light wave :
As Einstein said
The gravitational force is not force it is consequence of curvature of the space time splitting ,in this case mechanical force of radiation pressure .
The radiator force pushing the mirror was split in two components when hit the 1x1x9.5 m curved space time .
The same happens when Jupiter light wave travels through the 1x1x9.5 curved space time .

I am not questioning Einstein theory and standard model - I am asking could this momentum exchange be the mechanism of interaction between light,X rays and at the end objects with mass (mirror or clock hands )
And time space curvature ?

 

[Ibix]

light is not just following the curve trajectory - it is forced to follow the curvature by interacting with light wave by momentum exchange ?

There is no difference between "light" and "light wave". Light is nothing but an electromagnetic wave.

As Einstein said
The gravitational force is not force it is consequence of curvature of the space time splitting

I don't think Einstein said this.

The radiator force pushing the mirror was split in two components when hit the 1x1x9.5 m curved space time .
The same happens when Jupiter light wave travels through the 1x1x9.5 curved space time .

I'm sorry to be blunt, but if this makes sense to you then either you need to get a lot better at communicating or you need to get a lot better at physics. As written, it is (at best) wrong.

Light's path curves even in static spacetimes that couldn't possibly have a concept of momentum transfer (even if you could define that clearly) because they cannot change with time. A more detailed analysis would probably show the Sun recoiling slightly from the passage of the light and maybe some gravitational radiation (or something of the sort), but attempts to attribute energy and momentum to spacetime don't work out (except for "total energy contained in all spacetime" which can be defined in some fairly narrowly specified cases, but which won't help you here). So no, there is not even a clear meaning to the idea of transferring momentum to spacetime.

 

[jv11]

Thank you guys so much for your time and effort