Supercritical Drying with Water

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility and implications of using water for supercritical drying, particularly in the context of aerogel production. Participants explore the critical properties of water, the economic viability of the process, and the technical challenges involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether supercritical drying with water is feasible given its critical temperature and pressure, suggesting that these values are not excessively high compared to other solvents used in aerogel production.
  • Concerns are raised about the heat capacity of water, which is significantly higher than that of many industrial chemicals, making the process potentially expensive due to the energy required to reach supercritical conditions.
  • Participants highlight the economic implications of operating at high pressures, noting that the costs associated with maintaining pressures around 250 bar could be prohibitive.
  • One participant mentions the technical challenges of using superheated steam and references advanced nuclear reactor designs that operate under supercritical conditions, indicating that while it is technically possible, it is complex.
  • There is a discussion about the typical methods of drying, with one participant noting that drying is usually achieved by condensing water rather than using supercritical methods.
  • Another participant expresses interest in the formation of silica aerogels using water as a gel solvent, questioning whether it is possible to supercritically dry without the need for solvent exchange with liquid carbon dioxide.
  • One contribution points out that water can become a potent oxidizer in supercritical conditions, which may pose risks to the material being dried, potentially causing more damage than traditional drying methods.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility and practicality of supercritical drying with water. While some see potential, others highlight significant technical and economic challenges, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations related to the economic viability of high-pressure operations and the technical requirements for materials used in such processes. There is also uncertainty regarding the effects of supercritical water on the materials being processed.

NateTG
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Do people do supercritical drying with water?

The critical temperature and pressure of water - about 375 C and 3500 PSI - don't really seem that high. Some silica aerogels apparently handle temperatures that are much higher than that, and typical oxygen bottles are at 2500 PSI so it seems like it should be possible to make aerogel with water as the drying gel solvent.
 
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Hmm, I think it's really a matter of the heat capacity. The Cx (x = P or V) is really very much higher in water than in many industrial chemicals. Besides, to warm a liquid to about 650K is _very_ expensive. I wouldn't do it if the industry was about earning top dollar.

But my main concern is the pressure. Man, that is some really expensive thing you are about to build if your P = 250 bar. It will cost you dearly in manpower and time.

Sure, you will probably not do it at 250 bar, but even at 180 bar it will cost you a nickel and a dime.

It may be doable, but probably not economical.
 
NateTG said:
Do people do supercritical drying with water?

The critical temperature and pressure of water - about 375 C and 3500 PSI - don't really seem that high. Some silica aerogels apparently handle temperatures that are much higher than that, and typical oxygen bottles are at 2500 PSI so it seems like it should be possible to make aerogel with water as the drying gel solvent.
I'm not sure what the question is asking. Drying (e.g. of air) is usually done by condensing water.

If one is referring to dry steam, then yes there are some superheated systems, and there is one advanced nuclear reactor design based on supercritical conditions. It is however technically challenging!

With respect to oxygen (or most gases) bottles at 2500 psi, those are usually at room or low temperature.

The challenge is to find a material that has high strength for high pressure (3500 psi) at that temperature (375 C). The pressure vessel must be designed and manufacture to ASME B&PV (or equivalent) specifications. The structure must be free of flaws above a certain critical dimension, and the material must have low corrosion rates over some reasonable lifetime, e.g. 15-30 years.
 
Astronuc said:
I'm not sure what the question is asking. Drying (e.g. of air) is usually done by condensing water.

I'm interested in aerogel formation. Currently the processes seem to involve replacing the gel solvent with liquid carbon dioxide, and I was wondering if anyone had made a silica water gel, and supercritically dried it without going through the diffusion replacement process.
 
According to the ever-reputable Wikipedia, water becomes a potent oxidizer when it goes supercritical. This likely damages the material you're trying to dry more than simply drying by evaporation (which can cause damage because of surface tension) or freeze-drying (which leaves nice pores).
 

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