- #106
PeterDonis
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Can you give any links to threads/posts?vanhees71 said:I didn't mean that you are wrong but the statements by @RUTA . We had extended discussions about this repeatedly!
Can you give any links to threads/posts?vanhees71 said:I didn't mean that you are wrong but the statements by @RUTA . We had extended discussions about this repeatedly!
To my mind, you find some thoughts on MathPages in the article “On Cumulative Results of Quantum Measurements”.PeterDonis said:"Impart quantum spin" is too narrow; it should be "exchange angular momentum". Quantum spin can be inter-converted with other forms of angular momentum.
I would be interested in seeing any references in the literature to analyses of measurement interactions that address this question.
The Bell spin states are chosen to model conserved spin angular momentum. It's totally analogous to having an astronaut throw her flashlight in outer space so that conservation of momentum makes her move toward her spaceship. You write ##\vec{P}_{astronaut} + \vec{P}_{flashlight} = 0##. Of course if you wanted to confirm this you'd have to make measurements and that would introduce experimental uncertainty because momentum would be lost relative to the equation. But, that is not conveyed in the equation itself.PeterDonis said:How do you know? You're not measuring the exchange of angular momentum with the environment. That doesn't mean you can assume it doesn't happen. It means you don't know.
This article doesn't talk at all about what I was talking about, namely, the exchange of conserved quantities (such as angular momentum) between measured systems and measuring devices (and environments).Lord Jestocost said:To my mind, you find some thoughts on MathPages in the article “On Cumulative Results of Quantum Measurements”.
https://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath419/kmath419.htm
See the bolded qualifier I added. My point is that you can't ignore what is being ignored in the definition of the Bell spin states, if you are going to make claims about conservation laws. Conservation laws don't apply to open systems in isolation. They also don't apply to particular pieces of a conserved quantity in isolation. Spin angular momentum is not conserved by itself; only total angular momentum is conserved. But only spin angular momentum of the measured particles is captured in the mathematical model using Bell states.RUTA said:The Bell spin states are chosen to model conserved spin angular momentum if you ignore any exchange of angular momentum between the measured systems and measuring devices and environments, and if you ignore that spin angular momentum is not the same as total angular momentum.
And as I explained to you in those discussions, everything I am saying follows mathematically from the Bell states. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my statements. That's why it's been published numerous times in various contexts now. I have no idea what confuses you about it, so I can't help you there. Sorry.vanhees71 said:I didn't mean that you are wrong but the statements by @RUTA . We had extended discussions about this repeatedly!
Only if you assume that angular momentum conservation can be applied to the combined spin angular momentum of the measured systems taken in isolation, even though they are open systems during measurement and even though spin angular momentum is not conserved separately. But that assumption is false.RUTA said:everything I am saying follows mathematically from the Bell states
The bolded statement is exactly correct, assuming no losses to the measurement device. Such losses would vary from situation to situation even though the source of spin-entangled particles was the same in every experimental arrangement. Therefore, the Bell spin states certainly do not attempt to capture such losses, as they are not written in a form where one can enter specific experimental details.PeterDonis said:See the bolded qualifier I added. My point is that you can't ignore what is being ignored in the definition of the Bell spin states, if you are going to make claims about conservation laws. Conservation laws don't apply to open systems in isolation. They also don't apply to particular pieces of a conserved quantity in isolation. Spin angular momentum is not conserved by itself; only total angular momentum is conserved. But only spin angular momentum of the measured particles is captured in the mathematical model using Bell states.
See post #114PeterDonis said:Only if you assume that angular momentum conservation can be applied to the combined spin angular momentum of the measured systems taken in isolation, even though they are open systems during measurement and even though spin angular momentum is not conserved separately. But that assumption is false.
Which means you cannot use them as a basis for claims about conservation laws.RUTA said:the Bell spin states certainly do not attempt to capture such losses
This is much too vague. I would say that the exchange of angular momentum between the measured particle and the measuring device would vary based on the orientation of the measuring device. Which is precisely the kind of variation that could maintain conservation of total angular momentum in cases where the two entangled particles have their spins measured in different orientations.RUTA said:Such losses would vary from situation to situation
Is that what you would say about the astronaut?PeterDonis said:Which means you cannot use them as a basis for claims about conservation laws.
Now it looks like you want to invoke counterfactual definiteness for the particles' spins (like Alice and Bob in my story). The reason I do that is precisely to show how it differs from the QM prediction of ##\pm 1## at all angles. How would your explanation account for the ##\pm 1## prediction at all angles, given it is supposedly accounting for transfer to the environment, which would certainly vary with angle.PeterDonis said:This is much too vague. I would say that the exchange of angular momentum between the measured particle and the measuring device would vary based on the orientation of the measuring device. Which is precisely the kind of variation that could maintain conservation of total angular momentum in cases where the two entangled particles have their spins measured in different orientations.
What astronaut?RUTA said:Is that what you would say about the astronaut?
I don't know where you are getting that from. I am only talking about the spin measurement results that are actually observed, not about any counterfactual ones.RUTA said:Now it looks like you want to invoke counterfactual definiteness for the particles' spins
The ##\pm 1## prediction at all angles means that the net angular momentum exchange between the measured particles and the measuring devices (i.e., the vector sum of the exchanges from both measurements) must vary by angle (more precisely, by the difference in angle between the two measurements) if total angular momentum is to be conserved. (Note that the angular momentum that is exchanged does not have to be spin; it can be orbital, since what needs to be conserved is total angular momentum, not spin alone.) And that is what we would expect since we expect the angular momentum vector describing the exchange in each individual measurement to vary with the orientation of the measuring device.RUTA said:How would your explanation account for the ##\pm 1## prediction at all angles
kclubb said:So we do need to find a valid theory that works. Sean Carrol advocates for the “many worlds” interpretation. ... But I have to believe that, since there are legitimate scientists who believe SD is a possible reality, that it is a least POSSIBLE a theory can be developed. It just seems odd that most of the arguments I have read by Physicists against SD are emotional opinionated arguments dealing with free will, and “many worlds” is considered over SD as a better alternative, but Bell recognizing SD as a possible loophole to his theorem. Did he just not think it through before he made that statement? Is there something in the points that you make above the John Bell was not aware of? Specifically something that has been discovered after Bell that invalidates his claim?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/superdeterminism-and-the-mermin-device.1013414/post-6818631PeterDonis said:What astronaut?
In the case of the astronaut, the astronaut plus the flashlight is a closed system, at least as far as the astronaut throwing the flashlight is concerned. So I don't see the analogy with the case we are discussing.RUTA said:Is that what you would say about the astronaut?
Do you have a more precise definition and argument that would clarify what you mean here?DrChinese said:There must be a locally accessible "master plan" particle/field/property/object that instructs each quantum interaction how to act (i.e. to provide the outcome of every measurement). This master plan would have object copies in every region of space (to be local), and must provide "answers" (measurement outcomes) for at least 13.8 billion years of history of particles/energy being created/destroyed/transformed, etc. And it must do so in a manner so that the "true" quantum statistics (to explain Bell's result) are hidden from inquiring human experimentalists investigating Quantum Theory, which provides an accurate prediction of the observed statistics.
Which issue are you talking about? Superdeterminism?Jarvis323 said:The issue, to me, seems to be a fundamental error in our conceptualization of the problem from the start.
Maybe progress is also slow, because ... I don't know. A statement like "Conservation holds only on average" without further explanations is dangerous, and risks to create confusion. The consciousness-causes-collapse was also fueled by such dangerous statement, from London and Bauer, and maybe also from von Neumann. Their statements were not wrong, but only potentially misleading and dangerous first, before people like Henry Stapp turned them into actually wrong claims, and then charlatans exploited them to make money and spread even more confusion.RUTA said:As I showed in this Insight, the indeterminism we have in QM is unavoidable according to the relativity principle. And, yes, that means conservation of spin angular momentum is not exact when Alice and Bob are making different measurements. Conservation holds only on average (Bob saying Alice must average her results and Alice saying the same about Bob) when they make different measurements.
Alice and Bob obtain the same physical outcomes ##\pm 1## at all angles. When they happen to make a measurement at the same angle, they always get the same result, both get +1 or both get -1, per conservation of spin angular momentum. Now suppose in trial 1, Alice and Bob measured at the same angle and both obtained +1. In trial 2 Bob changed to ##\theta## wrt to Alice who got +1 and he got +1. In trial 3, they did the same measurements as in trial 2 with Alice getting +1 and Bob getting -1. How does conservation of spin angular momentum per the Bell states account for trials 2 and 3?PeterDonis said:The ##\pm 1## prediction at all angles means that the net angular momentum exchange between the measured particles and the measuring devices (i.e., the vector sum of the exchanges from both measurements) must vary by angle (more precisely, by the difference in angle between the two measurements) if total angular momentum is to be conserved. (Note that the angular momentum that is exchanged does not have to be spin; it can be orbital, since what needs to be conserved is total angular momentum, not spin alone.) And that is what we would expect since we expect the angular momentum vector describing the exchange in each individual measurement to vary with the orientation of the measuring device.
I've already given my answer several times: you are only evaluating conservation of angular momentum using the measured particles. But the measured particles are not a closed system. So you should not expect angular momentum to always be conserved if you only look at the measured particles. So the fact that you find that it isn't is not a problem.RUTA said:What's your answer?
If it's not conserved, where is it going on a trial-by-trial basis? And why does it not disappear when they make the same measurement? Where is that information in the wave function? How could it possibly be in the wave function, since you're talking about any number of possible measurement techniques? You're being way too vague here. Again, the physical measurement outcome is always the same, there is no variation in the amplitude of the outcome as Bob and Alice rotate their SG magnets. You haven't addressed that issue at all.PeterDonis said:I've already given my answer several times: you are only evaluating conservation of angular momentum using the measured particles. But the measured particles are not a closed system. So you should not expect angular momentum to always be conserved if you only look at the measured particles. So the fact that you find that it isn't is not a problem.
Then you should have no concern at all with what I said. But, for some reason, you think what I'm saying is crazy or wrong. I'm simply pointing out the QM facts.PeterDonis said:The correlations between Bob's and Alice's measurements are explained by the entangled states that you prepared them in. I am not saying that the prepared states are not the states you use in your model. Of course they are. And those prepared states are sufficient to account for the measurement results. So I don't know what you are asking me to answer with regard to how the measurement results are to be explained. "Standard QM" of course explains them just fine, and I have not said otherwise.
A measurement destroys the Bell state regardless of whether or not they measure at the same angle. I don't know what you're trying to say here.PeterDonis said:The claim you are making, however, goes beyond using the prepared state to explain the measurement results. Your claim is basically this: the two-particle system is prepared in an eigenstate of total angular momentum (parallel spin and zero orbital angular momentum--the latter is not explicitly specified, but is implicit in your model). But conservation of angular momentum then requires that the two-particle system stays in that eigenstate after measurement--and this is not what we observe in cases where Alice's and Bob's measurement angles for spin are different. So conservation of angular momentum must be violated in those cases; all we have is "average conservation" over many trials.
Again, what do you mean "stays in the eigenstate in which it was prepared"? The state refers to any direction in the symmetry plane because it's rotationally invariant. Therefore, I can let Alice's direction be the direction of the Bell state or I can let it be Bob's. Who is measuring the "right" direction in your explanation?PeterDonis said:My response to this is that your claim is based on a false premise. It is not true that the two-particle system must stay in the eigenstate of angular momentum in which it was prepared, after the measurement. The system interacts with measuring devices, and this interaction can exchange angular momentum between the system and the measuring devices (and their environments). So it is not valid to argue that angular momentum is not conserved on the basis that, when Alice's and Bob's measurement angles are different, the two-particle system does not end up in the same eigenstate of angular momentum in which it started.
Nothing you have said responds to this argument.
My answers are already implicit in what I've said before. I don't see the point of belaboring it.RUTA said:If it's not conserved, where is it going on a trial-by-trial basis? And why does it not disappear when they make the same measurement?
Yes, that is true. But you are basing your claim of non-conservation of angular momentum only on what happens when the angles are not the same. As far as I can tell, you are saying that angular momentum is conserved when the angles are the same.RUTA said:A measurement destroys the Bell state regardless of whether or not they measure at the same angle.
Yes; that rotationally invariant state is the state that is prepared. Are you saying this state is not an eigenstate of angular momentum? If so, how can you possibly make any claim about angular momentum being conserved or not conserved, when it doesn't even start out with a well-defined value?RUTA said:what do you mean "stays in the eigenstate in which it was prepared"? The state refers to any direction in the symmetry plane because it's rotationally invariant.
"The QM facts" do not include a claim that angular momentum is not conserved. Only you are making that claim, not "standard QM".RUTA said:I'm simply pointing out the QM facts.
"To see how this enters into the general quantum process, recall that in every measurement there is a degree of uncertainty depending on the precise manner in which the measurement is taken, i.e., the "basis" onto which we project the state vector to give the probabilities of the various possible discrete outcomes. The issue of conservation arises when we consider the interaction of two or more subsystems. The crucial point is that we're free to select the bases for our measurements of these various subsystems independently, and therefore the bases are not, in general, parallel. As a result, the exhibited behaviors of the subsystems will not, in general, be equal and opposite, and so each set of measurements represents a step in a random walk around the point of strict conservation...PeterDonis said:This article doesn't talk at all about what I was talking about, namely, the exchange of conserved quantities (such as angular momentum) between measured systems and measuring devices (and environments).
It's a misconception about the meaning of conservation laws on your side. The point is, as I tried to explain to you several times, that if you have prepared the singlet state of two spin-1/2 spins and you measure the angular-momentum components in non-collinear directions, you cannot say more concerning angular-momentum conservation than the probabilities for getting each of the four possible outcomes since all that angular-momentum conservation tells you is that spin components when measured in the same direction are always opposite to each other, given the preparation of the two spins in the spin-singlet state. Analogous statements of course also hold when you have prepared the system in one of the three spin-1 states.RUTA said:And as I explained to you in those discussions, everything I am saying follows mathematically from the Bell states. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my statements. That's why it's been published numerous times in various contexts now. I have no idea what confuses you about it, so I can't help you there. Sorry.
This seems relevant: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2108.08342.pdfPeterDonis said:This article doesn't talk at all about what I was talking about, namely, the exchange of conserved quantities (such as angular momentum) between measured systems and measuring devices (and environments).
Because the apparatus has an enormous number of
degrees of freedom relative to the measured system, even a very tiny difference
between the apparatus states that are correlated with the orthogonal states of
the measured system can be sufficient to account for the perceived deviation
from strict conservation of the quantity in question. Hence measurements need
not violate conservation laws.
LOL, you tell me! All I can figure out is:Jarvis323 said:Do you have a more precise definition and argument that would clarify what you mean here?
The Bell states don't account for it because they only describe the measured particles, not the measurement apparatus and its environment. In other words, the mathematical model consisting of the Bell states is simply inadequate to even analyze the question of whether angular momentum is conserved in Alice's and Bob's measurements, because it does not capture all of the physical systems involved in those measurements.RUTA said:No one here has shown me how the Bell states account for the missing conserved quantities per this "open system" explanation of entanglement (via classical thinking) only when Alice and Bob make different measurements.
I find this statement astounding. You cannot follow the simple fact that, during the measurements, the particles being measured interact with the measuring devices and their environments, and therefore are open systems (open systems being systems that are not isolated and interact with other systems), and that these interactions can exchange angular momentum?RUTA said:"open system" explanation (which I cannot follow at all)
In negative-result measurements, the result is obtained not through the occurrence of a physical event, as for a normal measurement, but by the absence of such an event.PeterDonis said:I find this statement astounding. You cannot follow the simple fact that, during the measurements, the particles being measured interact with the measuring devices and their environments, and therefore are open systems (open systems being systems that are not isolated and interact with other systems), and that these interactions can exchange angular momentum?
Which are irrelevant to this discussion since no such measurements are involved in the experiments being discussed.Lord Jestocost said:In negative-result measurements
In her "Guide for the Perplexed", Sabine Hossenfelder writes:
"What does it mean to violate Statistical Independence? It means that fundamentally everything in the universe is connected with everything else, if subtly so. You may be tempted to ask where these connections come from, but the whole point of superdeterminism is that this is just how nature is. It’s one of the fundamental assumptions of the theory, or rather, you could say one drops the usual assumption that such connections are absent. The question for scientists to address is not why nature might choose to violate Statistical Independence, but merely whether the hypothesis that it is violated helps us to better describe observations."