Surface element -- why parallelograms?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of surface elements in the context of parametrized surfaces, specifically why the area is represented as the absolute value of the cross product of tangent vectors, leading to the formation of parallelograms rather than triangles. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and conceptual clarification related to surface integrals and geometry in computer graphics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the absolute value of the cross product represents the area of a parallelogram formed by vectors, but express confusion about the implications of this in surface integrals.
  • One participant suggests that using parallelograms simplifies the mathematics involved, emphasizing that the size of the parallelogram can be made arbitrarily small.
  • Another participant elaborates on defining surface integrals, proposing that the area can be viewed as the product of the cross product of gradient vectors scaled by differential elements, leading to the area of a small parallelogram in the tangent plane.
  • A participant introduces the idea that projecting a rectangle onto a non-parallel plane results in a parallelogram, providing a geometric example to illustrate this concept.
  • Concerns are raised about the normalization of gradient vectors, questioning whether larger parallelograms should be used in regions where the surface changes rapidly.
  • One participant describes a scenario where a rectangle projected onto a plane results in a parallelogram, detailing the properties of the resulting shape and its angles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement regarding the use of parallelograms in surface integrals. There is no consensus on the necessity of normalization of gradient vectors or the implications of using parallelograms versus triangles.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in understanding the relationship between the size of the parallelograms and the behavior of the surface, particularly in regions of rapid change. The discussion also reflects on the dependence of definitions and assumptions regarding the geometry involved.

DivergentSpectrum
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we say the surface element of x(u,v),y(u,v),z(u,v) is absolute value of the cross product
rtial%20r%7D%7B%5Cpartial%20u%7D%5Ctimes%20%5Cfrac%7B%5Cpartial%20r%7D%7B%5Cpartial%20v%7D%3E%7C.gif

or
%5Cpartial%20y%7D%7B%5Cpartial%20v%7D%2C%5Cfrac%7B%5Cpartial%20z%7D%7B%5Cpartial%20v%7D%3E%20%7C.gif

i don't understand why this is. i know that the absolute value of the cross product
gif.gif
is the area of a parallelogram formed by a,b,a+b, but i get lost after that
im guessing something happens where dudv cancels out with ∂u∂v then just leaves ∂r, but i can't really figure what it means.

anyone whos got into computer graphics can tell you triangles are the building blocks of surfaces, because any 3 points occupy the same plane. why a parallelogram then?
 
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Because that is how the maths is simplest.
It makes no difference otherwise since the main difference between above and the computer approximation to a continuous surface is that the parallelogram is arbitrarily small.

Note: the parallelogram is not the only way of viewing the cross product.
 
DivergentSpectrum said:
i know that the absolute value of the cross product
gif.gif
is the area of a parallelogram formed by a,b,a+b, but i get lost after that

I'll reinterpret your question.

We could define a surface integral in a sophisticated way by saying it is the limit of processes that cover the surface with small shapes tangential to its surface and then form a sum of the area of each shape times the value of the function at the point of tangency.

We can define a surface integral in a less sophisticated way by specifying each small shape exactly. For the surface (x(u,v),y(u,v),z(u,v)) we can think of || <\frac{\partial x}{\partial u}, \frac{\partial y}{\partial u}, \frac{\partial z}{\partial u}> \times <\frac{\partial x}{\partial v}, \frac{\partial y}{\partial v}, \frac{\partial z}{\partial v} >|| du dv as

|| du <\frac{\partial x}{\partial u}, \frac{\partial y}{\partial u}, \frac{\partial z}{\partial u}> \times dv <\frac{\partial x}{\partial v}, \frac{\partial y}{\partial v}, \frac{\partial z}{\partial v} >||

In other words, think of du and dv as scalars that multiply the vectors involved so the expression is the area of a small parallelogram.

The two gradient vectors conveniently define a plane tangent to the surface. Multiplying the gradient vectors by small scalars when we take the cross product gives us the area of a small parallelogram lying in the tangent plane. This still leaves us open the question of why we can use the gradient vectors without normalizing them each to have length 1. Without that normalization we are using bigger parallelograms where the shape of the surface changes rapidly. It seems we should use smaller parallelograms there instead.
 
If you start with a rectangle ("\Delta x" by "\Delta y) in the xy-plane and project onto a plane that is NOT parallel to the xy-plane, the projection is a parallelogram. For example, if the rectangle with vertices at (0, 0), (1, 0), (1, 1), and (0, 1) is projected to the plane z= a+ bx+ cy, the vertices are projected to (0, 0, a), (1, 0, a+ b), (1, 1, a+ b+ c), and (0, 1, a+ c).

It is easy to show that opposite sides of that quadrilateral, such as (0, 0, a) to (1, 0, a+ b) and (0, 1, a+ c) to (1, 1, a+ b+ c) have the same length: \sqrt{(0- 1)^2+ (0- 0)^2+ (a- (a+ b))^2}= \sqrt{1+ b^2} and \sqrt{(0- 1)^2+ (1- 1)^2+ ((a+ c)- (a+ b+ c)^2}= \sqrt{1+ b^2}.

But the angles are NOT right angles: the line from (0, 0, a) to (1, 0, a+ b) can be written in parametric equations as x= t, y= 0, z= a+ bt, with t from 0 to 1. A vector in the direction of that line is <1, 0, b>. The line from (0, 0, a) to (0, 1, a+ c) can be written in parametric equations as x= 0, y= t, z= a+ ct with t from 0 to 1. A vector in the direction of that line is <0, 1, c>. The dot product of those two vectors is 0(1)+ 1(0)+ bc= bc, NOT 0.

A quadrilateral with opposite sided of the same length, but angle not right angles, is a general parallelogram.
 

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