Sustained nuclear criticality in liquid vortex

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of creating a nuclear reactor that utilizes dissolved radioactive salts in an aqueous solution, specifically through the generation of a vortex in the fluid. Participants explore the potential for self-sustaining vortices, energy extraction methods, and safety concerns related to such a reactor design.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose the idea of using a vortex to concentrate dissolved plutonium in a nuclear reactor, questioning whether such a design could be made self-sustaining.
  • Others express concerns about the safety of a vortex configuration, suggesting that a collapsing vortex could lead to exponential increases in neutron multiplication and potential accidents.
  • A participant argues that the heat production would have cylindrical symmetry, which would not contribute to speeding up the vortex.
  • Some participants discuss the impracticality of extracting energy from a vortex due to the need for fixed orientations of magnetic particles in a liquid.
  • There is a suggestion of using a rotary ramjet turbogenerator with fissile-fuel saltwater, incorporating a neutron-reflecting mechanism to achieve criticality.
  • Concerns are raised about the safety of direct steam production involving nuclear materials and the challenges of using pressurized radioactive gas.
  • One participant questions if work can be extracted from a nuclear fission reaction beyond heat, noting that practical applications for direct conversion of released particles have not been established.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no consensus on the feasibility or safety of a vortex-based nuclear reactor. While some explore the theoretical possibilities, others highlight significant safety concerns and practical limitations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note various assumptions about the behavior of fluids in a vortex and the implications for neutron multiplication and reactor safety. The discussion includes unresolved questions about energy extraction methods and the design of reactor components.

sevenperforce
Messages
82
Reaction score
16
In 1958, chemical operator Cecil Kelley was killed by a nuclear excursion in a mixing tank. A tank intended to reprocess trace amounts of dissolved plutonium-239 accidentally had dramatically more radioactive material dumped into it. The plutonium, being dissolved in a lower-density fluid than the rest of the solution in the tank, floated to the surface. When Kelley turned on the mixing tank, centrifugal force caused a vortex to form which concentrated the lower-density plutonium at the center. The plutonium reached prompt criticality in under a second and irradiated Kelley with about 36 Grays, seven times the adult lethal dose. He died within hours.

In this event, the excursion was halted almost immediately by the release of energy, which rapidly heated the solution and dispersed the momentarily concentrated plutonium.

I'm wondering:
  1. Would it be possible to build a nuclear reactor using dissolved radioactive salts in aqueous solution by generating a vortex in the fluid?
  2. Could such vortices be designed in order to self-sustain, so that the energy was released in such a way as to accelerate the rotation?
  3. If so, would it be possible to dissolve magnetic particles in the solution so that the whole rotating fluid mass produced a rotating magnetic field which could be used to directly provide electrical power by electromagnetic induction?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: mheslep
Engineering news on Phys.org
sevenperforce said:
In 1958, chemical operator Cecil Kelley was killed by a nuclear excursion in a mixing tank. A tank intended to reprocess trace amounts of dissolved plutonium-239 accidentally had dramatically more radioactive material dumped into it. The plutonium, being dissolved in a lower-density fluid than the rest of the solution in the tank, floated to the surface. When Kelley turned on the mixing tank, centrifugal force caused a vortex to form which concentrated the lower-density plutonium at the center. The plutonium reached prompt criticality in under a second and irradiated Kelley with about 36 Grays, seven times the adult lethal dose. He died within hours.

In this event, the excursion was halted almost immediately by the release of energy, which rapidly heated the solution and dispersed the momentarily concentrated plutonium.

I'm wondering:
  1. Would it be possible to build a nuclear reactor using dissolved radioactive salts in aqueous solution by generating a vortex in the fluid?
  2. Could such vortices be designed in order to self-sustain, so that the energy was released in such a way as to accelerate the rotation?
  3. If so, would it be possible to dissolve magnetic particles in the solution so that the whole rotating fluid mass produced a rotating magnetic field which could be used to directly provide electrical power by electromagnetic induction?

Imagine what would happen if the vortex collapsed. A cylinder with a vortex in the middle has a higher surface area to volume ratio than a cylinder without a vortex. This means that the cylinder is a more favorable configuration for fission. If the vortex collapses, then the neutron multiplication in the reactor will increase. The power level will grow exponentially and the potential for a serious accident is huge!

So no, it's not possible to build a safe nuclear reactor that runs in a vortex configuration.
 
The heat production would have a cylindrical symmetry, so it cannot speed the vortex up.

Extracting energy from such a vortex would be impractical as well. The magnetic particles would have to have some fixed orientation - against external fields (otherwise they do not perform work). That is not possible in a liquid, unless you add a solid structure. But then you have a bad combination of turbine and generator, where two separate devices are more efficient.

No, it does not work.
 
the_wolfman said:
Imagine what would happen if the vortex collapsed. A cylinder with a vortex in the middle has a higher surface area to volume ratio than a cylinder without a vortex. This means that the cylinder is a more favorable configuration for fission. If the vortex collapses, then the neutron multiplication in the reactor will increase. The power level will grow exponentially and the potential for a serious accident is huge!
It was my understanding that in the Kelley excursion, criticality was achieved because there were two unmixed layers of fluid. At rest, the surface area of the plutonium-carrying layer was very high, but as the vortex formed, it concentrated the plutonium into the center. The bottom layer of fluid acted as a neutron reflector, and thus prompt criticality was inevitable:

prmptcrtcl.png

Such a design can be rendered inherently safe because at rest, it is in a lower-criticality state than it is in motion; however, if the vortex becomes too sharp and power output goes too high, the energy release will cause mixing of the two fluids and immediately disperse the fuel.

I'd presume that the design of an intentional nuclear reactor would use some heavy immiscible fluid as the base/reflector fluid. Either that, or use a container with a shape that allows criticality only within a certain range of vortex strengths, perhaps using a neutron reflector that covers only some portion of the container:

crtcl rctr.png


mfb said:
The heat production would have a cylindrical symmetry, so it cannot speed the vortex up.

Extracting energy from such a vortex would be impractical as well. The magnetic particles would have to have some fixed orientation - against external fields (otherwise they do not perform work). That is not possible in a liquid, unless you add a solid structure. But then you have a bad combination of turbine and generator, where two separate devices are more efficient.
Hmm.

What about something like a rotary ramjet turbogenerator, but using fissile-fuel saltwater as the fuel and a neutron-reflecting ramjet?

Nuclear rotary ramjet.png

The fluid would pass through an impeller that sent it into narrow channels at the base. .The rotating portion would compress the fuel to near-criticality before exposing it to a neutron-reflecting "igniter" which would cause criticality; the heating and expansion of the fuel would push the rotating portion before the fuel passed out of the impeller and into a heat exchanger before being recycled back through.
 
Last edited:
sevenperforce said:
What about something like a rotary ramjet turbogenerator, but using fissile-fuel saltwater as the fuel and a neutron-reflecting ramjet?
Direct steam production including the nuclear material: possible, but with many safety issues. Pressurized radioactive gas...
The space version is the nuclear salt-water rocket without turbine.
 
mfb said:
Direct steam production including the nuclear material: possible, but with many safety issues. Pressurized radioactive gas...
Indeed, pressurized radioactive gas is something to be avoided on the best of days. Hence the desire for generating a stable, continuous critical reaction inside a fluid vortex, and doing so using some sort of asymmetry so that the energy can accelerate the vortex.

Is there any way to extract work from a nuclear fission reaction other than by heat?

If the fluid is compressible, then using an arrangement like this one ought to result in asymmetric pressure on the central "turbine", causing it to rotate...

topdown.png
 
sevenperforce said:
Is there any way to extract work from a nuclear fission reaction other than by heat?
Not if you want a critical fission reaction. For beta decays, a direct conversion of the released electron (let it fly against an electric field) is studied, but no practical application so far. For fission this wouldn't work.
sevenperforce said:
If the fluid is compressible, then using an arrangement like this one ought to result in asymmetric pressure on the central "turbine", causing it to rotate...
Good luck getting that efficient.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 46 ·
2
Replies
46
Views
16K
Replies
6
Views
5K
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
4K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
6K
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
6K
Replies
4
Views
10K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
19K