Medical Synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers

[zoobyshoe]

I don't think it's related. I think it's a different mental disorder. One that has nothing to do with synesthesia. If you knew someone with real synesthesia, you'd know it's not the same. Looking at someone and imagining it is not anywhere near the same as confusing touch, taste, sound and color.

Your daughter's synesthesia is not the only "real" form of synesthesia. There are masses of other kinds. Chi Meson has synesthesia. When he sees certain shapes he hears a sound distinct to that shape. The game "Sets" causes him to hear a cacophony of noises as he tries to concentrate on the variety of shapes on the cards. Mirror touch synesthesia is a variation of this. The sight of a touch causes them to feel it on their body. This is not a "mental disorder" any more than your daughter having colors triggered by graphemes is a "mental disorder".

You really need to read the whole thread with an open mind (forgetting your daughter's case). This whole field of study is new and all the causes and mechanisms are hypothetical at this point. What they have pinned down is that the appropriate parts of the brain are, in fact, activating when the synesthetic sensation is experienced. The "touch" part of the brain is activated when the mirror synesthete sees a touch, just as the "color" part of the brain is activated when a grapheme -> color synesthete sees a grapheme. Their experience is as real as a real touch or real color.

 

[rhody]

Evo, Zooby,

From post #175 above:

For example, normally I apparently don't look at people directly too often, but when I was experimenting with my friend, I made myself look. I'd say that phase of my life lasted for about 6 weeks, and now I'm back to not looking and suppressing it as much as possible.

For obvious reasons this person can't look directly at others without being "hooked to their senses". That has to be a real bummer. What happens in a crowd for example, or when watching a soccer game for instance, when a player gets kicked and the mirror touch synesthete is watching. Ouch...

Edit: On top of this he also has: (letter/number-color-gender; music/color) synesthesia as well. Needless to say at this point is that his senses are bombarded when performing singular tasks as well. I found his explanation refreshing in that it must be very hard for him to function in society, which he apparently does to a high degree. That is amazing in and of itself.

Rhody...

P.S. Evo, I understand and can empathize with your concern for your daughter. I think once you get more familiar with the research in this emerging field, some of your natural fears will be satisfied and you will not be so freaked about it, at least that is my hope.

 

[waht]

I said before that I didn't experience any sound form of synesthesia. However, recently I recalled listening to a piece of classical music many years ago that could have some color experience associated with it. So I pulled it up and listened to it again. When it got to the really slow flute-violin moment, I experienced a smooth transition of a dim purple to a dim red-orange.

Over the years I listened to lots of classical music, and never really experienced any color. I'm wondering though if it's possible that there is one particular pathway that is only activated by a specific sequence, melody or tone of sounds - sort of like a key that would cause the color experience.

I repeated listening to this over and over again, and am getting same colors just as I remembered from first listening to it many years ago (like 8 or 10).

 

[rhody]

Zooby,

Was managing my Google Reader subscriptions and ran into this:

Pretty impressive, there are a fair number of folks following this thread here, and through Google/Reader as well. That was your post the Google BOT picked up on by the way.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Zooby,

This paper was published in 1998, has the consensus as to what qualifies as synesthesia changed since, which would disqualify this as a legitimate type ?
This paper came out of a collaboration of University of Sydney, Australia and University of Otago, New Zealand.

Just when you thought we had reached the end of new types of synesthesia to discuss, this:

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/fst/faculty/acree/fs616/pdf/Stevenson99.pdf"

Abstract:

In two experiments the smelled sweetness of odors was increased by using them as flavorants of sucrose solution. Experiment 1 used blind experimenters to compare a target odor mixed with sucrose with a control odor mixed with water during masked training trials. The increased sweetness of the target odor was unaffected by whether or not subjects revealed some explicit knowledge of the contingencies in a post-conditioning recognition test. Experiment 2 found that such a conditioned increase in odor sweetness occurred whether training solutions were sipped from a cup or sucked through a straw. Using a frequency test designed to provide a sensitive assay of contingency awareness, there was still no indication that this affected conditioning. It was concluded that such modification of the taste-properties of odors results from implicit simultaneous associative learning and provides an example of learned synesthesia.

Summary: You should read pages 16 - 20 for a more complete summary

In summary, the results from these two experiments demonstrate that conditioned changes in odor sweetness are robust in the face of controls for experimenter bias and mere exposure effects. They occur even when orthonasal contact with the odor, i.e., sniffing, is prevented when a subject samples a training solution. This form of conditioning takes place when awareness of the experimental contingencies is at best very limited and appears unrelated to the size of the change reported by a subject. Such changes are also relatively long lived, in that no sign of a decrease was obtained as a result of delaying testing for 24 h or more. In the context of previous research on odor–taste combinations the present study appears to provide a rare example of an experimental demonstration of learned synesthesia.

Rhody...

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I have some synesthetic imagery. I percieve weekdays as having various colours (Monday is blue, Tuesday is yellow, Wednesday is beige, Thursday is brown, Friday is green, Saturday is red, Sunday is white). I don't know if it's exactly synesthetic, but I also have numbers ordered in a very specific fashion (All black, though), and a rather odd "wheel" on which the months of the year are present. Months do have colors as well, but not as vividly as weekdays.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I said before that I didn't experience any sound form of synesthesia. However, recently I recalled listening to a piece of classical music many years ago that could have some color experience associated with it. So I pulled it up and listened to it again. When it got to the really slow flute-violin moment, I experienced a smooth transition of a dim purple to a dim red-orange.

Over the years I listened to lots of classical music, and never really experienced any color. I'm wondering though if it's possible that there is one particular pathway that is only activated by a specific sequence, melody or tone of sounds - sort of like a key that would cause the color experience.

I repeated listening to this over and over again, and am getting same colors just as I remembered from first listening to it many years ago (like 8 or 10).

This is pretty interesting. I have run across mention of similar situations: a person has a primary, clear cut synesthesia but also what I'd call "secondary," less developed, forms.

What's the piece that makes you see these colors?

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have some synesthetic imagery. I percieve weekdays as having various colours (Monday is blue, Tuesday is yellow, Wednesday is beige, Thursday is brown, Friday is green, Saturday is red, Sunday is white). I don't know if it's exactly synesthetic, but I also have numbers ordered in a very specific fashion (All black, though), and a rather odd "wheel" on which the months of the year are present. Months do have colors as well, but not as vividly as weekdays.

It sounds like you have what is called a "number form". This is a special case of synesthesia that's noticably different from most of the others. I started a thread about it in General Discussion a few weeks ago:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=400140

Number forms are discussed in detail in two chapters of the book Wednesday Is Indigo Blue. That would be the book to get if you want to compare your experience to others. A few people also posted in the thread about their number forms. It was the first time they'd ever been able to talk openly about them and have anyone believe them. Check it out.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This paper was published in 1998, has the consensus as to what qualifies as synesthesia changed since, which would disqualify this as a legitimate type ?

Not sure where you're headed. Are you saying you think it should be disqualified?

 

[rhody]

Not sure where you're headed. Are you saying you think it should be disqualified?

Zooby,

Nope, just wanted your opinion on it, remember post #117 saying that synesthesia can be brought on by a post hypnotic suggestion ? More along those lines. The authors of this paper in post #185 above, it is 20 pages long are convinced it is a "rare example" of learned synesthesia, that's all. I am not saying that it is or it isn't.

Rhody...

 

[waht]

This is pretty interesting. I have run across mention of similar situations: a person has a primary, clear cut synesthesia but also what I'd call "secondary," less developed, forms.

This one seems to be totally undeveloped as it responds only to a very narrow range of sounds.

What's the piece that makes you see these colors?

That is the ending of Bruckner's 6th symphony, mov 2

I found a recording on youtube which is quite similar to Eugene's recording which I listened to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySYAcKqxxsY&feature=related

at 7:05 it begins as purple, and slowly transitions to an orange by 7:40 when it's over and gone. At one point in between the color is indefinite - could be purple, orange, or both. There is no apparent change in shades, it's like flipping back and forth between purple and orange at various locations. Towards the end it settles to a little darker shade of orange than before. As for the rest of the movement, it's all static across the spectrum, there is absolutely no color. It's all weird.

 

[rhody]

This one seems to be totally undeveloped as it responds only to a very narrow range of sounds.



That is the ending of Bruckner's 6th symphony, mov 2

I found a recording on youtube which is quite similar to Eugene's recording which I listened to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySYAcKqxxsY&feature=related

at 7:05 it begins as purple, and slowly transitions to an orange by 7:40 when it's over and gone. At one point in between the color is indefinite - could be purple, orange, or both. There is no apparent change in shades, it's like flipping back and forth between purple and orange at various locations. Towards the end it settles to a little darker shade of orange than before. As for the rest of the movement, it's all static across the spectrum, there is absolutely no color. It's all weird.

Just speculating, maybe what waht (pun intended) lol is experiencing is a new form of synesthesia that up to now hasn't been categorized so far. In my reading to date, I haven't come across another example like this, is anyone else out there experiencing the same thing ?

Edit: waht I just listened to the piece at 7:05 - 7:40, if I am not mistaken that instrument that leads in is an oboe or clarinet, (see http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...h+2+instruments&gs_rfai=&fp=1a3caa30e0a876cf") it has a distinct sound, the tones remind me of a bell ringing with sweet tremolo, as the time approaches the end, the tremolo appears to lengthen, soften. Could this be the instrument that is causing what you are seeing ? Or is it a blending of other instruments as well ? I doubt it because much of the rest of the piece does not have that instrument played in that way. Your thoughts ?

Rhody...

 

[waht]

I checked the frequency spectrum of the instance that is inducing a purple color, and it seems to be dominated by a weak 0.75 KHz fundamental and a stronger second harmonic at 1.5 KHz, plus lots of other weaker frequency components all over the place.

I also listened to a pure sine wave (with weak harmonics) varied manually from 100 Hz to 10 KHz which was generated by a signal generator hooked up to an amplifier and a speaker. I didn't seem to get any color experience at any frequency, and not even at 0.75 KHz or 1.5 KHz. As if somehow there must be a certain combination of frequencies that would unlock the color.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This one seems to be totally undeveloped as it responds only to a very narrow range of sounds.



That is the ending of Bruckner's 6th symphony, mov 2

I found a recording on youtube which is quite similar to Eugene's recording which I listened to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySYAcKqxxsY&feature=related

at 7:05 it begins as purple, and slowly transitions to an orange by 7:40 when it's over and gone. At one point in between the color is indefinite - could be purple, orange, or both. There is no apparent change in shades, it's like flipping back and forth between purple and orange at various locations. Towards the end it settles to a little darker shade of orange than before. As for the rest of the movement, it's all static across the spectrum, there is absolutely no color. It's all weird.

It can't be the pitches because you'd see the colors anytime you heard those pitches. It seems to me it has to be the specific mix of sound Bruckner has created when the colors appear: those pitches/chords on those instruments. I really haven't run into any other descriptions of a synesthetic experience this fragmentary. Sacks reports the case of a woman with sound -> taste, but it's only triggered by one thing: musical intervals. A minor second is sour, a fourth tastes like mown grass, a minor sixth tastes like cream, etc. If she's not concentrating on intervals music has no taste. When she concentrates on music as music she has visual color effects. Go figure.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Nope, just wanted your opinion on it, remember post #117 saying that synesthesia can be brought on by a post hypnotic suggestion ? More along those lines. The authors of this paper in post #185 above, it is 20 pages long are convinced it is a "rare example" of learned synesthesia, that's all. I am not saying that it is or it isn't.

Are you asking if they actually "learned" it, or if it was, in fact, an unintentional form of hypnosis? If you are, I'd say the latter is a good possibility.

Now, last night down at the cafe, I bent down and cupped some water in my mouth in the restroom to rinse it out after hours of coffee drinking. At that precise moment, the automatic air freshener machine squirted some powerful scent into the little room. As soon as I smelled it, the water in my mouth tasted like some awful, aromatic chemical.

I wondered how often that would have to happen before water started tasting like that even when there was no air freshener.

The moral of the story is: don't drink out of the sink like a zoobie.

 

[rhody]

Zooby,

I must be getting a bit batty, have a look at my edit comment to post #192, and listen from 7:05 to 7:40, see if you don't think the whole complexion of the piece doesn't change because of the oboe or clarinet making its presence known. I listened to it three times and that's the best I can come up with. Could it be that one instrument played at those frequencies with a slight "ringing" and then softening at the end that is doing the trick ?

I should have posted a new reply but wanted to keep things together for waht to think about.

Rhody...

 

[waht]

waht I just listened to the piece at 7:05 - 7:40, if I am not mistaken that instrument that leads in is an oboe or clarinet, (see http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...h+2+instruments&gs_rfai=&fp=1a3caa30e0a876cf") it has a distinct sound, the tones remind me of a bell ringing with sweet tremolo, as the time approaches the end, the tremolo appears to lengthen, soften. Could this be the instrument that is causing what you are seeing ? Or is it a blending of other instruments as well ? I doubt it because much of the rest of the piece does not have that instrument played in that way. Your thoughts ?

Rohdy...

Yes, I'm pretty sure it must be this instrument (clarinet) (I thought it was a flute at first) that is generating those specific sounds, and it only seems to be playing one time in the entire symphony as far as I can tell. The background violin music doesn't induce any colors, nor any other music I've ever come across. Once the clarinet starts playing it's a euphoric purple color to orange reddish.

I checked the sound of this instance under a cheap spectrum analyzer and it specifically shows a strong 1.5 KHz pitch, and a weaker 0.75 KHz pitch once the clarinet is playing at 7:05.

I'm going to look for some clarinet music to listen to.

Edit:

Also the lengthening and softening is sort of teasing and it's what is causing the transitions from purple to red-orange.

 

[rhody]

Are you asking if they actually "learned" it, or if it was, in fact, an unintentional form of hypnosis? If you are, I'd say the latter is a good possibility.

Now, last night down at the cafe, I bent down and cupped some water in my mouth in the restroom to rinse it out after hours of coffee drinking. At that precise moment, the automatic air freshener machine squirted some powerful scent into the little room. As soon as I smelled it, the water in my mouth tasted like some awful, aromatic chemical.

I wondered how often that would have to happen before water started tasting like that even when there was no air freshener.

The moral of the story is: don't drink out of the sink like a zoobie.

Zooby,

No, I am not saying that the example in the latest article that claims it could be from a form of post hypnotic suggestion. What I am saying is that both the post hypnotic suggestion article and the latest article that claims that in this rare instance a type of synesthesia can be learned are unusual. That 20 page paper is quite technical in scope and detail. I skimmed it at best. I will try to give it a more rigorous look and try to come up with arguments that agree or disagree with the authors conclusions.

I still have the bi-directional paper fairly fresh in my mind and wanted to report on that as well, but give a brief history of fMRI and EEG before doing so. If I dig into this too it will cause me to lose focus and not be as clear as I want or need to be. To me, the technical details of fMRI and EEG as used in the bidirectional synesthesia test are of interest. I like to understand most things that I am able to from "the bottom up" so to speak. I know there are PF members with fMRI experience here from looking at other threads, hopefully some of those folks will read the post and correct any mistakes I might make.

Rhody...

P. S. Are you sure some of that air freshener didn't go up your nose ? If it was citrus, it definitely has a bitter taste.

 

[waht]

It can't be the pitches because you'd see the colors anytime you heard those pitches. It seems to me it has to be the specific mix of sound Bruckner has created when the colors appear: those pitches/chords on those instruments. I really haven't run into any other descriptions of a synesthetic experience this fragmentary. Sacks reports the case of a woman with sound -> taste, but it's only triggered by one thing: musical intervals. A minor second is sour, a fourth tastes like mown grass, a minor sixth tastes like cream, etc. If she's not concentrating on intervals music has no taste. When she concentrates on music as music she has visual color effects. Go figure.

Yes, I've ruled out single pitches in the experiment I did from 100 Hz to 10 KHz. So it much be a specific combination of sounds. This reminds me of when Ramachandran did in an experiment the with amputees feeling pain in their phantom limbs from the book Phantoms in the Brain. It sufficed that a specific and complex visual stumuli of the other working hand in the mirror triggered something in the brain and eased the pain.

 

[rhody]

I checked the frequency spectrum of the instance that is inducing a purple color, and it seems to be dominated by a weak 0.75 KHz fundamental and a stronger second harmonic at 1.5 KHz, plus lots of other weaker frequency components all over the place.

I also listened to a pure sine wave (with weak harmonics) varied manually from 100 Hz to 10 KHz which was generated by a signal generator hooked up to an amplifier and a speaker. I didn't seem to get any color experience at any frequency, and not even at 0.75 KHz or 1.5 KHz. As if somehow there must be a certain combination of frequencies that would unlock the color.

waht,

Could it be the ringing of the instrument (clarinet, oboe) that is doing the trick ? Try finding pieces that have individual solo's for clarinet and oboe and in that frequency range. You might try having a drink with Agave like Patron (it activates the right side of the brain) and then repeat the experiment to see if the color changes or becomes more vivid.

Rhody...

P.S. To me the ringing reminds me of when you fill a crystal wine glass with liquid then run your fingers around the edge to produce that ringing sound. You can change frequency with more or less liquid, give that a shot too, if that does it, you have found the stimulus that produces the colors. Try to match the ringing that occurs just after 7:05 in the music, then play with the frequency up and down.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'm going to look for some clarinet music to listen to.

Try "Rhapsody in Blue". It opens with a clarinet.

If it works, we'll have to have the title changed to "Rhapsody in Purple."

 

[waht]

Try "Rhapsody in Blue". It opens with a clarinet.

If it works, we'll have to have the title changed to "Rhapsody in Purple."

Lol. Tried that along with Mozart's and Stravinsky's clarinet suit but they are just too fast paced to get any lock on. I'm trying to think of something really slow.

To me the ringing reminds me of when you fill a crystal wine glass with liquid then run your fingers around the edge to produce that ringing sound. You can change frequency with more or less liquid, give that a shot too, if that does it, you have found the stimulus that produces the colors. Try to match the ringing that occurs just after 7:05 in the music, then play with the frequency up and down

I'm not sure if I understand there is any ringing involved in the Bruckner's excerpt. In the wine glass example, the ringing would quickly dissipate, and in the Bruckner's excerpt the pitch seems to be stretched or suspended in time.

I don't have wine glasses right now, but I did tap a regular crystal cup to produce the ringing, and it didn't do anything. No color.

 

[rhody]

Waht,

Give this a listen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZ9TK37E78", one of my favorite Christmas tunes. There is synthesizer, and cymbals that ring in different frequencies/intensities. Not sure if his flute will do it, it is too flat.

Rhody...

Edit: I just read your post last post: "too fast paced to get any lock on" maybe the key is a slow ringing, you may intuitively know the range, and just need to "hunt" for it.
There is slow/medium/fast paced ringing in this piece.

 

[waht]

Waht,Give this a listen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZ9TK37E78", one of my favorite Christmas tunes. There is synthesizer, and cymbals that ring in different frequencies/intensities. Not sure if his flute will do it, it is too flat.

Jethro is also too fast, but the bell part from 3:10-3:30 is really beautiful, but still no color.

I just read your post last post: "too fast paced to get any lock on" maybe the key is a slow ringing, you may intuitively know the range, and just need to "hunt" for it.
There is slow/medium/fast paced ringing in this piece.

I think I found another one. I thought to look in Bruckner because I used to be familiar with his music.

In this clarinet/oboe excerpt from his 8th symphony, 1st mov.



3:37-3:54 and 5:45-6:30 seems be inducing a white-crystal-light bluish color for a while. But there is no other transition of colors, it's only white then it's gone.

I checked their frequency spectrum and they all have 1.5 KHz in common. In addition, the 3:37 part has a strong component at 2.0 KHz, and the 5:45 part has a 1.7 KHz and 2.5 KHz components.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Hi waht, that is wonderful. I'm not able to link, but on page 53 of the "best songs ever" Thread in GD, there are some links about Helene Grimaud. Her audio-color ability came to her initially with an orange colour. She has said this didn't surprise her too much as she already experienced grapheme-colour cross talk. You may find that interesting. Also, did you listen to the 2nd movement of Mozart's clarinet? It is slow, and involves extension, just a thought.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I thought of another thing - When I'm cooking and trying to taste and determining the appropriate seasoning, I see taste as a sort of pentagonal diagram in my mind.

 

[waht]

Hi waht, that is wonderful. I'm not able to link, but on page 53 of the "best songs ever" there are some links about Helene Grimaud. Her audio-color ability came to her initially with an orange stain that didn't surprise her too much because she already experienced grapheme colour. You may find that interesting.

Indeed, that's interesting and similar.

Also, did you listen to the 2nd movement in Mozart's clarinet? It is slow, and involves extension, just a thought.

I've listened to the Mozart's clarinet concerto many times, and particularly the adagio whose tempo matches that of Burckner's pieces, and suffice it to say there is no hint of any color experience. When I come back to Brucker again, those few instances when clarinet/oboe is playing produces a color experience, and then it's gone when other instruments take lead. So I guess it's just one of those really undeveloped sound synesthesia that would probably go unnoticed had I not stumbled upon the score by accident.

So far I've discovered three sound colors: purple, red-orange, and brilliant white.

When I try to match these colors with my definite grapheme synesthesia generated colors for letters:

Color of "J" is the same purple as the sound-generated purple, and colors of "C" or "X" match with sound generated brilliant white.

Surprisingly, there isn't any letter match for sound red-orange, the closest would be "F" and or "N" by they are not exactly same matches as the previous ones.

 

[waht]

I thought of another thing - When I'm cooking and trying to taste and determining the appropriate seasoning, I see taste as a sort of pentagonal diagram in my mind.

That's cool. A pentagon is yellow for me.

 

[zoobyshoe]

So far I've discovered three sound colors: purple, red-orange, and brilliant white.

When I try to match these colors with my definite grapheme synesthesia generated colors for letters:

Color of "J" is the same purple as the sound-generated purple, and colors of "C" or "X" match with sound generated brilliant white.

Surprisingly, there isn't any letter match for sound red-orange, the closest would be "F" and or "N" by they are not exactly same matches as the previous ones.

Getting off topic due to the phrase "no match": Cytowic and Sacks report a couple cases of people seeing "martian" colors; colors they only see in synesthesia and have never seen in the real world.

A couple years back in General Discussion someone posted a thread asking, vaguely, if it was possible to see "new" colors. I'm wondering now if that poster might not have been seeing synesthetic "martian" colors.

Anyway, I think Fuzzyfelt's story has suggested what might be the explanation for your Bruckner experience: this is a form of synesthesia that was developing but got arrested somehow. That's why it's so limited.

I recall you telling me about crossing a math threshold where it all suddenly started making sense to you. Makes me want to speculate that when the neurons were most plastic you put your attention on math instead of sound->color, and that ended up going nowhere, while your math flourished.

 

[rhody]

Anyway, I think Fuzzyfelt's story has suggested what might be the explanation for your Bruckner experience: this is a form of synesthesia that was developing but got arrested somehow. That's why it's so limited.

I recall you telling me about crossing a math threshold where it all suddenly started making sense to you. Makes me want to speculate that when the neurons were most plastic you put your attention on math instead of sound->color, and that ended up going nowhere, while your math flourished.

zooby, waht, fuzzy,

If I understand what you are saying, you (Zooby) are saying that waht's synesthesia is a result of selective or partial pruning of the neurons in selective brain areas resulting in a "partial spectrum" of color experience in the presence of certain kinds of music. Is this what you meant ? It certainly makes sense, sort of like a "clipped" or partial synesthestic experience, no ? Very perceptive thinking, I must say Zooby.

Rhody...