Telepathy: Rupert Sheldrake & Evidence from "The Sense of Being Stared At

[SGT]

Yes,but if you accidentally prove that God didn't create the universe,than he doesn't exist.Also,what would create God,metaphysical God only exists in human imagination,metaphysics is wrong approach,meaning God is wrong hypothesis.There is no outside the universe.

Science can't prove such a thing! In reality science does not prove anything. Science observes facts, proposes theories to explain those facts and performs experiments to validate the theories.
If an experiment shows that the theory is not valid, scientists try to improve the theory or substitute it for a new one. If the experiment confirms the theory, this does not prove it, it merely makes it more likely.
If after a great number of experiments all of them verify the theory, the likelihood increases, but it never reaches 1.
Even if scientists where able to show that the Big Bang has likelihood near 1, this would not prove the Big Bang hypothesis and even less the non participation of God. God could have created the Big Bang and all the laws of physics, chemistry and biology so that after 8 billion years after the Big Bang a small planet orbiting a class G star would form and 4.5 billion years after that event evolution (created by God) would allow that intelligent beings would be discussing in this forum.
I don't claim that God exits, I only say that we cannot postulate his/her nonexistence.

 

[fileen]

why must we try to prove it scientificly. experience it and you will know it is true. all my experiences with esp or telepathy have been random and uncontroled. I've never been able to decide when to know something I shouldnt. it just happens. it seems the same with other people I have discussed this with. this makes me a little curious to know how anyone can accomplish controlled experiments turning up any concrete evidence of anything. for example: I know someone who sometimes dreams things that are going to happen. it doesn't mean that everything she dreams is going to happen. she keeps dream journals, and we both find it quite interesting, but its uncontroled. also, same friend, will randomly hear what I am thinking and respond as though I said something out loud. very creepy, but you get use to it. again she doesn't hear all my thoughts, just random ones every once in a while. often she has no clue that I never said anything.

 

[Evo]

How the heck did god get into this conversation? Discussions of god are off topic. Let's get back on topic.

 

[zoobyshoe]

why must we try to prove it scientificly. experience it and you will know it is true.

So long as you can't give a scientific proof, the claim it exists remains in doubt. It is a lot more realistic to suppose that your friend who seems to know what you're thinking about, actually just knows you so well that she has learned to unconsciously sort out the looks on your face, the way you breath, the way your eyes move, and can formulate from this a really good idea of what's going through you mind.

So, someone might design an experiment to figure out if she can still do it if she can't see or hear you. If she can, that's an argument in favor of telepathy. If she can't, that's an argument in favor of telepathy being something else that's mistaken for telepathy.

all my experiences with esp or telepathy have been random and uncontroled.

This is the case with most people, and is why it is still in doubt. You have to remember that for any kind of "telepathic" experience you have, there is probably a reasonable explanation in terms of things we accept as fact. That leaves doubt as to whether or not it really exists, or is a bunch of other things masquerading as telepathy.

 

[Kerrie]

Evo, I agree, this topic has been skewed far from the original intent.

I don't know much about this Sheldrake fellow, but I can say that I experience a sort of telepathic communication with my children consistently. Our current version of science is unable to explain this, but when I am experiencing over and over that "mother's intuition", I am convinced it is a field of knowledge yet undiscovered and that makes it sort of exciting.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't know much about this Sheldrake fellow, but I can say that I experience a sort of telepathic communication with my children consistently. Our current version of science is unable to explain this, but when I am experiencing over and over that "mother's intuition", I am convinced it is a field of knowledge yet undiscovered and that makes it sort of exciting.

That to me is one of the most frustrating parts of fringe topics. In my own experience there are many strange phenomena that are quite common but nearly impossible to control and quantify. A Mother's intuition is a good example of that. I think there is something to many of these "insights" that we get.

It looks like this whole business regarding chemical communication may explain at least one additional, previously unrecognized sense. In fact we know this is true in some animals and insects. So in this regard we know that ESP exists. We just know it by a different name now - pheromones.

Edit: I recently experienced a sense of being watched. The path from the house to my office is about three hundred feet long. I walk through the trees, pretty much in complete darkness most nights, less the flashlight beam directed ahead of me and down. A few months ago I began to sense that something was right out there; just beyone the light. I would shine the light in this direction and that, up the hill into the trees and down into the pasture, but I didn't see anything for several weeks. Then, one night my light caught the eyes. Sure enough, we have two deer living on the property. At times I may walk within about 20 feet of them. They just lie very still until I pass. So, that's what happened. I am almost sure that somehow I was sensing their presence. It wasn't like I heard or saw anything, in fact that would be nearly impossible considering how lousy my hearing is, and the field of view is limited by the flashlight, but I certainly had the creepy feeling of being watched. I mentioned this several times to Tsu before we discovered the deer. Since then the feeling has not returned.

Scouts honor!

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't know much about this Sheldrake fellow, but I can say that I experience a sort of telepathic communication with my children consistently. Our current version of science is unable to explain this, but when I am experiencing over and over that "mother's intuition", I am convinced it is a field of knowledge yet undiscovered and that makes it sort of exciting.

I think the explanation for uncanny mother/children intuition lies both in the fact that people are much more alert to subtle things about each other than we give ourselves credit for, and also, but even more, in the fact that mothers are the ones teaching the children their ways of percieving and thinking and expressing themselves from the very outset.

Hearing a mother has an uncanny ability to communicate with her children makes sense, because you taught them everything they know about communication. They have your genes, and, for that reason are in a position to learn from you, by simply being around you, to a degree profounder than you could experience with almost any other person you'll ever encounter. They know things about the expression on your face with perfect certainty, that no other human could start to grasp, and visa versa.

How far could this go toward creating the impression of outright "telepathy", I wonder? I've surprised my sisters now and then by apparent feats of telepathy, seeming to know things about what they are thinking. They forget at these times that I grew up with them and have learned through osmosis almost exactly where they will run with certain kinds of thoughts and information.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Then, one night my light caught the eyes. Sure enough, we have two deer living on the property. At times I may walk within about 20 feet of them. They just lie very still until I pass. So, that's what happened. I am almost sure that somehow I was sensing their presence.

The trouble is, you live out in the woods, where deer or whatever might be found on any night. I recall your story of the bull who used to be around. That being the case, there's no reason to attach special importance to the feeling there might be something watching you. As a kid, I used to sometimes walk an even shorter distance, 50 ft. from our barn to the house after dark, and I almost never wasn't worried something might be out there in the dark. If the merest thought there might be something or someone out there gets into your head, your instincts are going to go on alert, because it's all too possible, and quite natural to check.

You checked for quite a while, by your account, before anything actually appeared. It could be they were always there, beyond the reach of the flashlight, or it could be that was the very first night they'd showed up.

This reminds me a little too much of the Infallible Mandan Rain Dance Ceremony: it always ended in rain. Because once they started it, they wouldn't stop under any circumstances untill it rained. Took months sometimes.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The trouble is, you live out in the woods, where deer or whatever might be found on any night.

These are the first seen on the property in over 12 years

I recall your story of the bull who used to be around. That being the case, there's no reason to attach special importance to the feeling there might be something watching you.

No, the situation has changed. We no longer have any cattle or sheep around.

 

[SGT]

why must we try to prove it scientificly. experience it and you will know it is true. all my experiences with esp or telepathy have been random and uncontroled. I've never been able to decide when to know something I shouldnt. it just happens. it seems the same with other people I have discussed this with. this makes me a little curious to know how anyone can accomplish controlled experiments turning up any concrete evidence of anything. for example: I know someone who sometimes dreams things that are going to happen. it doesn't mean that everything she dreams is going to happen. she keeps dream journals, and we both find it quite interesting, but its uncontroled. also, same friend, will randomly hear what I am thinking and respond as though I said something out loud. very creepy, but you get use to it. again she doesn't hear all my thoughts, just random ones every once in a while. often she has no clue that I never said anything.

Each person dreams around 250 themes each night. Of course we don't remember all of them, but this is true. One way to remember more dreams then the ordinary is to keep a journal. So, your friend probably remembers a lot of dreams. No wonder if some of them become true, meanly if you allow some lack in the time interval between the dream and the event and from the theme of the dream and what has actually happened.

 

[SGT]

Evo, I agree, this topic has been skewed far from the original intent.

I don't know much about this Sheldrake fellow, but I can say that I experience a sort of telepathic communication with my children consistently. Our current version of science is unable to explain this, but when I am experiencing over and over that "mother's intuition", I am convinced it is a field of knowledge yet undiscovered and that makes it sort of exciting.

Any mother is constantly worried about the health and the safety of her children. So mothers have hundreds of intuitions every day, most of them unpleasant. When nothing bad happens, the mother simply forgets the intuition. But bad things happen all the time, so when one of them happens to your child, you will certainly remember you had an intuition about it. This is what is called selective thinking, you keep the thoughts that confirm your preconceived ideas and forget the ones that don't.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is what is called selective thinking, you keep the thoughts that confirm your preconceived ideas and forget the ones that don't.

Selective memory, not selective thinking.

 

[SGT]

Selective memory, not selective thinking.

Those are different things. Selective memory makes you forget unpleasant facts. Selective thinking makes you select the facts that agree with your preconceived thoughts and discard the ones that disagree.
People that honestly believe in telepathy, clairvoyance and other ESP phenomena, use selective thinking. We have dreams, premonitions, sense of being observed at every moment. If something happens that seems to confirm those things, we attribute a significance to them, if not you simply forget them. This is selective thinking.
As you pointed to Ivan, when we walk alone in the dark it is very natural to feel uncomfortable and have a sense of being observed. Most of the times there is no stalker, but once in a while a person (or a deer) can really be observing you. Selective thinking makes you discard the times there was nothing and attach importance to the one time the feeling was true.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Those are different things. Selective memory makes you forget unpleasant facts. Selective thinking makes you select the facts that agree with your preconceived thoughts and discard the ones that disagree.

We both agree on the dynamics of a given cognitive distortion, but disagree on a standard term. What reference source do your terms come from? I would have called your "selective thinking" a "confirmation bias", or a "mental filter".

 

[SGT]

We both agree on the dynamics of a given cognitive distortion, but disagree on a standard term. What reference source do your terms come from? I would have called your "selective thinking" a "confirmation bias", or a "mental filter".

I got it from here. Confirmation bias is one type of selective thinking, that could be applied to what we are discussing.

 

[fileen]

I have no doubts about mothers intuition, but I think perhaps it may be more than just mothers intuition. my horse is my best friend in the world, and she has been healthy since just a couple months ago. I was away for the weekend when I just knew something was wrong. I called up the farm and sure enough she had some lumps in her throat that no one was even aware of until I had called and made them check her over. I think it all has to do with bonds between people and even animals. obviously mothers and their children have great bonds. my own mother believes there is a invisible connection between her and I. having no children of my own I really can't voice an oppinion, but I know my "child" is my horse, and she always knows what I am thinking, and I always know what she's thinking. animals have senses we are not even aware of. how can we explain a dogs ability to "sense" cancer in a person, and know right where it is? how can we explain that when I am really sad and I walk into my horses stall she lays down and puts her head in my lap? is this intuition? I don't really know, but I don't think any random horse would know how I feel and that I need to be comforted.

 

[SGT]

I have no doubts about mothers intuition, but I think perhaps it may be more than just mothers intuition. my horse is my best friend in the world, and she has been healthy since just a couple months ago. I was away for the weekend when I just knew something was wrong. I called up the farm and sure enough she had some lumps in her throat that no one was even aware of until I had called and made them check her over. I think it all has to do with bonds between people and even animals. obviously mothers and their children have great bonds. my own mother believes there is a invisible connection between her and I. having no children of my own I really can't voice an oppinion, but I know my "child" is my horse, and she always knows what I am thinking, and I always know what she's thinking. animals have senses we are not even aware of. how can we explain a dogs ability to "sense" cancer in a person, and know right where it is? how can we explain that when I am really sad and I walk into my horses stall she lays down and puts her head in my lap? is this intuition? I don't really know, but I don't think any random horse would know how I feel and that I need to be comforted.

From what you write you must be very concerned with your horse. How many times, being distant, have you had this sensation that something was wrong? The other times nothing was wrong and you forgot the feeling. This time the feeling showed right.
About this connection you have with your horse, there is nothing supernatural. Since animals don't talk, they are very sensitive to body language. Your horse can see from your posture that you are sad or happy and act accordingly. A strange horse, being unfamiliar with you, has not the same knowledge of your behaviour and, even if it knew, would not try to confort you.

 

[PIT2]

From what you write you must be very concerned with your horse. How many times, being distant, have you had this sensation that something was wrong? The other times nothing was wrong and you forgot the feeling. This time the feeling showed right.

This is a classic example of trying to raise the odds of a 'normal' explanation.
Just state that the event has happened many times, but that the person just forgot about it.

Btw, i had (what i think to be) an experience with telepathy just yesterday. It is my 3rd one so far in my life that i consider telepathy(im a twin so i won't even mention all the coincidences involving him, which i think may well have a non-telepathic explanation)

Heres what happened:
I went to the movies (war of the worlds) yesterday with a friend. Just before we got in, he said: "hey guess who i saw yesterd..."

Before he even finished talking, i mentioned who he saw. I even instantly knew where he saw the guy. The guy he saw btw was a politician, of which there are hundreds. The place where he saw him, was in front of a trafficlight downtown. All matched. (i can even right now 'remember' this guy talking on the phone, but i haven't checked with my friend if that was the case).

My friend did not say that he saw a politician, nor give any other clues to whom it might be(it may as well have been my twinbrother, sean connery, or britney spears). What i quoted above, was the only thing he said about this before i interrupted him and answered his question.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As you pointed to Ivan, when we walk alone in the dark it is very natural to feel uncomfortable and have a sense of being observed. Most of the times there is no stalker, but once in a while a person (or a deer) can really be observing you. Selective thinking makes you discard the times there was nothing and attach importance to the one time the feeling was true.

You are making an assumption based on what you believe to be true. I have walked this path two, four, or six times a night for most of ten years. This particular situation was unique which is why I mentioned it. This is why I was impressed. If I often felt that I was being watched, it wouldn't be worth mentioning, would it. Selective thinking can also cause one to discard good information in order to support a belief.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Keep in mind that we need not invoke magic to imagine how one might sense an observer. But, frankly, this incessant need that many so called skeptics have to rationalize fairly clear cut personal experiences, is IMO, ridiculous. Just because one can twist a story into something that it's not doesn't make that distortion of the facts, or the respective rationalization true.

 

[Kerrie]

Any mother is constantly worried about the health and the safety of her children. So mothers have hundreds of intuitions every day, most of them unpleasant. When nothing bad happens, the mother simply forgets the intuition. But bad things happen all the time, so when one of them happens to your child, you will certainly remember you had an intuition about it. This is what is called selective thinking, you keep the thoughts that confirm your preconceived ideas and forget the ones that don't.

Any mother? Choose your words carefully regarding mother's intuition, especially if you are not a mother yourself...I don't appreciate you discounting my experiences so carelessly, or any parents experiences for that matter. Stating your opinion as fact lends you little credibility. No where in my post did I imply my intuition was "magical", but something that our current accumulation of knowledge (especially yours) may not yet explain.

Of course I spend a lot of time and effort with my children, so that bond I have with them strengthens my intuition with them, and not just when bad things happen. Just the other night my 5 year old son awoke in the middle of the night from falling asleep very early in the evening. He laid in bed quietly since he knew everyone else was sleeping, and didn't make a sound to wake anyone. At the same time, I awoke very suddenly with the concern that he could wake up any moment hungry since he slept through dinner. I gently peeked into his room, and there he was lying in his bed quietly and I asked him if he was hungry. For the next couple of hours, we hung out, had hot chocolate and then fell back asleep on the couch. Now tell me, is this a bad thing? Or just my mother's intuition that understands my children that you discount as unpleasant?

I get very irritated with those who are determined to think one way without taking into account some credible experiences that are the catalyst for some innovative ways of understanding our world and ourselves better. To be skeptical is one thing, to be stubborn in your ways of thinking is not being skeptical.

 

[fileen]

sgt,
my horse until this time has never been sick at all. I honestly have never been afraid for her safety. bear in mind I am with her all the time and personally assure that there are as little risk to her safety as possible. obviously if other horses at my farm were sick, or there were new horses in the barn I would take extra care, but my mare does not come in contact with any other horse unless I know about it. as a show horse she is worth a lot of money, as well as being my best friend. she has the best of every thing, I am a very good horse owner. again there was no reason for me to consider it. she was in good hands. I saw to it personally. I don't worry about my horse. this was not normal. I knew there was something wrong. I had no doubt. this has never happened before. call it mothers intuition or esp or whatever, but its unexplainable. I experience lots of abnormal things. sometimes out of no where I just look up and say "grandmas calling" or something and then the phone rings. and no, I don't ever say "grandmas calling" and the phone doesn't ring, so give it up.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Now tell me, is this a bad thing? Or just my mother's intuition that understands my children that you discount as unpleasant?

If you read what SGT said again, it is clear he was saying that mothers constantly worry whether or not their children are experiencing anything unpleasant, in order to be ready to alleiviate it:

Any mother is constantly worried about the health and the safety of her children. So mothers have hundreds of intuitions every day, most of them unpleasant.

You were, indeed, worried that your son might be hungry, which would be unpleasant for him. That is all SGT was saying in his use of the word "unpleasant".

 

[Kerrie]

If you read what SGT said again, it is clear he was saying that mothers constantly worry whether or not their children are experiencing anything unpleasant, in order to be ready to alleiviate it:
You were, indeed, worried that your son might be hungry, which would be unpleasant for him. That is all SGT was saying in his use of the word "unpleasant".

When nothing bad happens, the mother simply forgets the intuition. But bad things happen all the time, so when one of them happens to your child, you will certainly remember you had an intuition about it.

I think the "selective thinking" is coming into play here also...I took SGT's whole post as a negative reference to mother's intuition, not just certain parts..."bad things" and "unpleasant things" are subjective terms.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is a classic example of trying to raise the odds of a 'normal' explanation.

You say this like it's a bad thing. Criticizing the Skeptical take on a matter because it's the skeptical take, in a forum called "Skepticism and Debunking" is like criticizing the physics explanation of a matter because it's the physics explanation in a forum called "Physics."

I don't expect anyone to buy the Skeptical take lock stock and barrel under any circumstances if they feel they have a good reason not to buy it.

I am still confused about why anyone is posting anything in this forum if they don't even want to risk hearing the skeptical take.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I think the "selective thinking" is coming into play here also...I took SGT's whole post as a negative reference to mother's intuition, not just certain parts..."bad things" and "unpleasant things" are subjective terms.

Hmmmmm...I can't say that I find SGTs post to be a "negative reference" to it. If there is anything wrong with his post, the only thing I can say is that he neglected to pay attention to how intensly you are feeling about it, and that his response came off as, not so much negative, as dismissive.

The kind of mistake he is describing, where a person contantly suspects a particular thing might occur, and then congratulates himself for having had an "intuition" about it, if it eventually does occur, forgetting that he had the same intuition a thousand times with no result, is a real, chronic mistake that people make all the time. I have done it myself. For two weeks straight I might experience a "feeling" that today is the day I'm going to get a letter or phone call from a particular person. When it happens, I think: "I KNEW it!" and conveniently fail to remember all the times I suspected it without it coming to pass.

I think if you think back, there are probably plenty of times you looked in on your kids and they were sleeping soundly. That particular example, where you woke up worried, looked in, and he was awake, isn't so convincing to me of mother's intuition.

I happened to be thinking in detail about earthquakes the day before the big quake in San Fransisco a few years back, and, at the time wrote a letter to one of my sisters seriously suggesting I must have had a psychic premonition, because it seemed to me that I must have. How else can you explain it? I was thinking in detail about earthquakes, and by God, the next day there was a huge, destructive earthquake, only a few hundred miles away from me, up the coast.

Well, SGT is actually right. I started paying attention to how often I think about earthquakes in detail, and, living here on the west coast, and having been through a couple small ones, I actually think about them about three or four times a week. Am I psychic?

 

[zoobyshoe]

You are making an assumption based on what you believe to be true. I have walked this path two, four, or six times a night for most of ten years. This particular situation was unique which is why I mentioned it.

No, Ivan, you checked "for several weeks":

A few months ago I began to sense that something was right out there; just beyone the light. I would shine the light in this direction and that, up the hill into the trees and down into the pasture, but I didn't see anything for several weeks. Then, one night...

 

[PIT2]

You say this like it's a bad thing. Criticizing the Skeptical take on a matter because it's the skeptical take, in a forum called "Skepticism and Debunking" is like criticizing the physics explanation of a matter because it's the physics explanation in a forum called "Physics."

I don't expect anyone to buy the Skeptical take lock stock and barrel under any circumstances if they feel they have a good reason not to buy it.

I do not criticize it because it is skeptical, but because i disagree with the likelyhood of it as an explanation. Wherever did u get the idea that i hate skepticism?

Its just not really objective thinking to assume the opposite of what the data indicate. Of course its wise to consider these kinds of explanations, but the idea that a 'skeptic' somehow someway knows the experience a person had better than that person him/herself, is of course false.

Lets take that above case for example. Is it likely that Jileen had experienced this feeling 'my horse is in trouble' thousands upon thousands of times before (so that the odds are raised enough to allow a freak coincidence) and undertook steps to find out if something was wrong with the horse, subsequently forgetting all about it?

I certainly do not think so, but who knows. (actually, we do know now, since she adressed this issue in above post)

Furthermore i described an experience i had just 2 days ago, in which such an explanation is not even applicable. I know it must appear now that i made this experience up just for this topic, but for what its worth, i didnt.

I am still confused about why anyone is posting anything in this forum if they don't even want to risk hearing the skeptical take.

Im afraid u misunderstand my posts. Just because i dissagree with certain skeptic explanations, does not mean that i am somehow deaf to any arguments. This is simply what a discussion is like. One person says one thing, the other disagrees and says something else, etc. I don't see any problem?

 

[SGT]

I think the "selective thinking" is coming into play here also...I took SGT's whole post as a negative reference to mother's intuition, not just certain parts..."bad things" and "unpleasant things" are subjective terms.

Well, the interpretation zoobieshoe gave to my words is the correct one! My first language is not English, so I may not use it in the proper way. Thinking in one language (mine is Portuguese) and writing in another may lend to bad phrasing. I apologize for that, but since this is an international forum you should be more complaisant with mistakes non English speaking people do.
And I am not saying mother's intuition is a bad thing. Children are in constant danger, real or imaginary. A bad dream is very stressful to a child, so a mother checking for her child well being is a positive trait. Even if you check ten times with nothing menacing your child, but in the eleventh time your child is awake and sorry, your mother's intuition has worth its existence. That's probably why evolution kept this trait in human beings, specially in females.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I do not criticize it because it is skeptical, but because i disagree with the likelyhood of it as an explanation.

Actually you said:

This is a classic example of trying to raise the odds of a 'normal' explanation.
Just state that the event has happened many times, but that the person just forgot about it.

Again, you are, to all outward appearances, criticizing his offering a "normal" explanation as if there's something wrong with offering a "normal" explanation.

You say later you actually disagreed because you didn't think his explanation was the right one in this case, but where was your "right explanation" in favor of the horse telepathy? You didn't make one.

Furthermore i described an experience i had just 2 days ago, in which such an explanation is not even applicable. I know it must appear now that i made this experience up just for this topic, but for what its worth, i didnt.

Don't worry. I don't think you made it up. I have the exact same politician story.