Telepathy: Rupert Sheldrake & Evidence from "The Sense of Being Stared At

  • Thread starter Thread starter sage
  • Start date Start date
AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers around Rupert Sheldrake, a biologist known for his controversial ideas on telepathy and concepts like "morphic resonance." Participants express mixed views on his credibility, with some labeling him a "crackpot" for promoting unscientific ideas, while others argue that his experiments, particularly regarding telepathy, are intriguing and warrant further exploration. Critics assert that his methodologies may be biased and that his claims lack rigorous scientific backing. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of science versus pseudoscience, with some participants advocating for skepticism towards unproven claims while others emphasize the importance of open-mindedness in scientific inquiry. The debate extends to the nature of scientific proof, the existence of God, and the validity of personal experiences related to telepathy and intuition, with a consensus that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Overall, the thread reflects a tension between skepticism and curiosity regarding unexplained phenomena.
  • #151
Ivan Seeking said:
No way; this concept if fundamental to all of QM. I will dig out my book but I can guarantee that you are misunderstanding what he says.
"I want to emphasize that light comes in this form - particles. It is very important to know that light behaves like particles, especially for those of you who have gone to school, where you were probably told something about light behaving like waves. I'm telling you the way it does behave - like particles."

QED, p 15
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #152
Ivan Seeking said:
The key is to realize that as you said, a single photon can interfere with itself even in a double split experiment. In other words, the one photon had to pass through both slits.

"There is no splitting of light into "half particles" that go different places."

-Feynman
QED
p.15
 
  • #153
Ivan Seeking said:
If the energy of the closed system has increased, the mass has increased.
If this has anything to do with what we're talking about then all it means is that the only people whose thoughs have mass are closed-minded people.
 
  • #154
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #157
Ivan Seeking said:
If the energy of the closed system has increased, the mass has increased.
What closed system? The human body? The Universe? The brain uses energy coming from food to fire the neurons. The chemical reactions produce heat. the excess heat is transported by the blood to the skin, where it dissipates into the ambient by radiation (very little) and transpiration.
I don't see any increase of energy not accounted for.
By the way, the interpretation of the paradox of Maxwell's demon is that the demon will expend energy to observe the gas molecules and the demon plus the trap door will increase their entropy. So the total entropy of the system gas-demon-trap will increase.
The theory that information contains energy smells like a creationists argument.
 
  • #158
The information contains energy solution was presented in a physics lecture at OSU. It is found that useful information [as opposed to random data] can do work. A machine can be built that shows this.

The closed system reference was sloppy. I was referencing the idea that energy has been added to a box. Are you suggesting that it doesn't require energy to think or that the brain organizes information free of charge? As Zooby pointed out, a less elegant view reveals that the chemistry demands that suggested is correct - the energy of the system has increased, so the mass has increased.

In Maxwell's paradox, we assume a perfect door. This is elementary to the problem.
 
Last edited:
  • #159
zoobyshoe said:
"I want to emphasize that light comes in this form - particles. It is very important to know that light behaves like particles, especially for those of you who have gone to school, where you were probably told something about light behaving like waves. I'm telling you the way it does behave - like particles."

QED, p 15

Well, first let me say this. When we begin to study QM, the first thing that we learn is the wave function. This is the basis for all of QM - the most successful theory in the history of science. There is no doubt about this fact: Feynman did not do away with the need for the wave function.

On page 54 he also says:
"So light doesn't really travel only in a straight line;' it smells the neighboring paths around and uses a small core of nearby space."

Does this sound like a particle? Can particles really smell?. You can't take one sentence from the introduction and assume that this gives the complete picture.
 
  • #160
zoobyshoe said:
Check out the pages 54, 55, and 56, and also his footnote on page 76. I am pretty sure Feynman has done away with the need for a "wave function".

Yes, this is confusing. The best answer that I can manage at the moment is that he describes a model that avoids the wave function by introducing other magic, like "smelling the neighborhood". I haven't read this for a long time so the context is no longer clear, but I think you are reading too much into what he says. I will try to come up with a better explanation when time allows.

I should add that the proper interpretation of the wave function and collapse is still hotly debated. In fact, some Cosmologists now propose that a measurement collapses the wave function of the observer and not that observed. So in a sense, since Feynman, the problem has only gotten worse. Some scientists think that collapse has been explained via Von Neumann’s wave function collapse postulate, but other scientists disagree.
 
  • #161
A few years ago I tried to sort this all out. From this effort, here is an excerpt from a personal email from Steve Carlip - a highly respected physicist.

The answer to the ``measurement problem'' is not known, at least in
the sense that there's no answer that is widely accepted. For most
purposes, that doesn't matter, since Von Neumann showed that in
general it doesn't matter exactly where the collapse takes place --
that is, if you have a chain of instruments measuring instruments
measuring instruments, the final predictions will be the same whichever
one ``collapses the wave function.''

That's not very satisfying as a fundamental answer, though. But there's
little experimental basis to say anything more, so there's no agreement
among physicists about where to go from there. Some people argue for
some additional dynamics, for example a stochastic process that causes
physical wave function collapse (look up the GRW model, for example).
Penrose and a few others believe that gravitational effects should make
the Schrodinger equation nonlinear and cause collapse. Many people in
quantum cosmology, where one has to think about a wave function for
the whole universe, believe there's no collapse; when you look at the
dial on an instrument, *you* go into a superposition of states. Others
argue that the key is ``decoherence,'' the near-vanishing of interference
terms when you interact with a system with a large number of degrees
of freedom; Gell-Mann, Hartle, Griffiths, and Omnes have major research
programs on ``decoherent histories.''

There's a book edited by Wheeler and Zurek called _Quantum Theory of
Measurement_ that has many of the classic papers on this subject. You
should also look at Chris Isham's book _Lectures on Quantum Theory_,
especially chapter 8, and at Bell's essay collection, _Speakable and
Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics_. Jim Hartle's 1992 Les Houches
lectures are also worth reading.

> At the end of this review, the author cites Bell who seems to say that
> although deep problems exist within this question, most physicists
> simply avoid the issue and it's implications.

Most physicists avoid *most* issues. I avoid most issues in condensed
matter theory, for example. The measurement problem in quantum
mechanics is a deep one, and most physicists recognize it's there, but
it doesn't affect most areas of research, and few people have any idea
how to resolve it. If someone could figure out a *testable* implication,
that would make a big difference; but right now, most of the argument
is about ``interpretation'' of the existing theory, with no hint that different
interpretations affect anything except the way individuals visualize things.

Steve Carlip

I think his last sentence accounts for the confusion with Feynman's comments.
 
Last edited:
  • #162
Thank you for that Carlip quote Ivan. I have always depended on him to combine deeper knowledge about some things (especially GR) than anybody else with a head screwed firmly on his shoulders. And this quote confirms my opinion again.
 
  • #163
Ivan Seeking said:
The information contains energy solution was presented in a physics lecture at OSU. It is found that useful information [as opposed to random data] can do work. A machine can be built that shows this.

The closed system reference was sloppy. I was referencing the idea that energy has been added to a box. Are you suggesting that it doesn't require energy to think or that the brain organizes information free of charge? As Zooby pointed out, a less elegant view reveals that the chemistry demands that suggested is correct - the energy of the system has increased, so the mass has increased.

In Maxwell's paradox, we assume a perfect door. This is elementary to the problem.
All vital processes, including thought, require energy. This energy may be used to turn small molecules into more complex ones (aminoacids into proteins). The excess heat is eliminated to the ambient in the form of heat. Unless you have some cite that proves that not all energy employed in firing the neurons turn into heat, I don't believe that any portion has become matter.
If you take energy from a random mix of water molecules, they will turn into an ice crystal. A crystal is more organized and thus contains more information than the random molecules, but it is obtained when the water releases energy.
 
  • #164
Ivan Seeking said:
As Zooby pointed out, a less elegant view reveals that the chemistry demands that suggested is correct - the energy of the system has increased, so the mass has increased.
The firing of neurons doesn't add energy, it uses stored energy. If anything, thinking increases the entropy. Thoughts don't represent an increase in energy and they don't have mass: they are events during which energy is expended, not added to storage.
The event "thought" is not the occasion of the inflow of energy. It is the occasion of the expenditure of electropotential energy that is primarily transduced to heat. To the extent that tiny amount of heat conrtributes to the brain's overall operating temperature, we may consider the energy "recycled", but the real heat source for the brain is the blood supply, and the heat generated by all the firing neurons is a drop in the ocean in the overall flow of heat from the body into the head and out the top of the head.

You might argue elegantly that memory has mass since it is the kind of organized information you're referring to, but thoughts don't have mass.
 
  • #165
Okay, because Zooby said so. :rolleyes:

What are your qualifications Zooby? Should we assume that you are an expert in the functions of the brain, or are you self taught?

I stated that this all appears to be true. I have run this by a number of qualified people who think it makes sense. Maybe I am wrong for some reason, but you need to get over your perpetual case of freshmanitis.
 
Last edited:
  • #166
selfAdjoint said:
Thank you for that Carlip quote Ivan. I have always depended on him to combine deeper knowledge about some things (especially GR) than anybody else with a head screwed firmly on his shoulders. And this quote confirms my opinion again.

He has been kind enough to help a couple of times - a really nice guy.
 
  • #167
As for the brain, if we store information then it must take work to do it. But my suggestion, and I did clearly indicate that this was my suggestion and not a proven fact, was based on a fundamental principle of information and energy.
 
  • #168
Okay its starting to come back to me now. I remember that Feynman is famous for a calculation that has been interpreted as meaning that an electron in motion interacts with its future self. The "smelling" that Feynman mentions may refer to virtual particles... But unless one of our experts chimes in before hand, I will get the proper answer to explain Feynmans comments. Its just been so long that for the life of me I can't remember the context. It looks like I had better get back to reading the selections suggested by Carlip, as well as a re-read of QED. :biggrin:
 
  • #169
zoobyshoe said:
The firing of neurons doesn't add energy, it uses stored energy. If anything, thinking increases the entropy. Thoughts don't represent an increase in energy and they don't have mass: they are events during which energy is expended, not added to storage.
The event "thought" is not the occasion of the inflow of energy. It is the occasion of the expenditure of electropotential energy that is primarily transduced to heat. To the extent that tiny amount of heat conrtributes to the brain's overall operating temperature, we may consider the energy "recycled", but the real heat source for the brain is the blood supply, and the heat generated by all the firing neurons is a drop in the ocean in the overall flow of heat from the body into the head and out the top of the head.

You might argue elegantly that memory has mass since it is the kind of organized information you're referring to, but thoughts don't have mass.
I disagree. Neurons scarcely generate any heat. Heat comes from imagination. Fire away.
 
  • #170
Ivan Seeking said:
Yes, this is confusing. The best answer that I can manage at the moment is that he describes a model that avoids the wave function by introducing other magic, like "smelling the neighborhood".
This is incorrect. He does away with the need for a concept of wave function by calculating probability amplitudes. Look back at the paragraph that footnote #8 refers to. The opposite of "similar magic" is probablility amplitudes, not "smells" the neighborhood.

The "smells" remark was just a colorful metaphor that he, himself, put in quotes: it's an amusing anthropomorphisation. It's the way he talks. Look on page 57, second paragraph from the bottom:

'Now, let's have some fun. Let's `fool the light,' so that all paths take exactly the same amount of time."

In case there's any doubt in your mind, Feynman is not suggesting that photons are sentient beings that can be fooled, or that can smell. Don't get all Aspergery and start taking amusing remarks like that literally.

I haven't read this for a long time so the context is no longer clear, but I think you are reading too much into what he says. I will try to come up with a better explanation when time allows.
I am positive Feynman is saying there is no need for a wave function.
I should add that the proper interpretation of the wave function and collapse is still hotly debated.
This is clear from everything I've dug up for this conversation.
In fact, some Cosmologists now propose that a measurement collapses the wave function of the observer and not that observed. So in a sense, since Feynman, the problem has only gotten worse. Some scientists think that collapse has been explained via Von Neumann's wave function collapse postulate, but other scientists disagree.
The double slit has obviously created a mystery. When you can't tell what something is, you start speculating, then hypothesizing. I am kind of amazed at how mystical a lot of these trains of thought become. The double slit is one thing for certain: a rohrschach test.
Ivan Seeking said:
I think his last sentence accounts for the confusion with Feynman's comments.
The last sentence being:

If someone could figure out a testable implication, that would make a big difference; but right now most of the argument is about "interpretation" of the existing theory, with no hint that different interpretations affect anything except the way individuals visualize things.

This is a statement I agree with to the very small extent I am aware of and can follow all the competeing theories, but it actually has nothing to do with any confusion on my part about what Feynman said. I don't believe I am confused in asserting he did away with the need for a collapsable wave function. In QED no such thing has to be accounted for or calculated:

"This strange phenomenon of partial reflection by two surfaces can be explained for intense light by a theory of waves, but the wave theory cannot explain how the detector makes equally loud clicks as the light gets dimmer. Quantum electrodynamics "resolves" this wave-particle duality by saying that light is made of particles (as Newton originally thought), but the price of this great advancement of science is a retreat by physics to a position of being able to calculate only the probability that a photon will hit a detector, without offering good model of how it actually happens."

He shoves the collapsable wave function to the side and says in effect, "I'm going to approach the whole thing from a completely different angle."

He does the same thing to the HUP. Look at the footnote on pages 55 & 56:

3This is an example of the "uncertainty principle": there is a kind of "complementarity" between knowledge of where the light goes between the blocks and where it goe afterward-precise knowledge of both is impossible. I would like to put the uncertainty principle in ts historical place: When the revolutionary ideas of quantum physics were first coming out, people still tried to understand them in terms of old-fashioned ideas (such as, light goes in straight lines). But at a certain point the old-fashioned ideas would begin to fail, so a warning system was developed that said, in effect, "your old-fashioned ideas are no damn good when..." If you get rid of all the old-fashioned ideas and instead use the ideas that I'm explaining in these lectures - adding arrows for all the ways an event can happen - there is no need for an uncertainty principle!

If you happen to have a copy of Genius by James Gleick you will remember the story of Niels Bohr's uncomprehending reaction to Feynman's diagrams:

"The chicken-wire diagrams that Feynman had etched on the blackboard seemed, by contrast, quite definite. Those trajectories looked classical in their precision. Niels Bohr stood up. He knew this young physicist from Los Alamos-Feynman had argued freely and vehemently with Bohr. Bohr had sought Feynman's private council there, valuing his frankness, but now he was disturbed by the evident implications of those crisp lines. Feynman's particles seemed to be following paths neatly fixed in space and time. This they could not do. The uncertainty principle said so.

"Already we know that the classical idea of the trajectory in a path is not a legitimate idea in quantum mechanics," he said, or so Feynman thought-Bohr's soft voice and notoriously vague Danish tones kept his listeners straining to understand. He stepped forward and for many minutes with Feynman standing unhappily to the side, delivered a huniliating lecture on the uncertainty principle. Afterward Feynman kept his despair to himself.

Genius, p.8

Feynman was no respector of the "well-established" wave-particle duality, and found the most useful means of approaching the problem was to analyze light as particles. I say "most useful" not "most accurate" because in Six Easy Pieces he says that the true naure of a photon is not particle or wave, nor is it both wave and particle, it is neither wave nor particle: a thing unto itself that has no comprehensible analogy on a macro scale, but which is most usefully analyzed as a particle.
 
  • #171
Ivan Seeking said:
Okay, because Zooby said so. :rolleyes:
Reminds me of fileen.
What are your qualifications Zooby? Should we assume that you are an expert in the functions of the brain, or are you self taught?
Eh? My qualifications were fine for you when you wanted to use something I asserted in your argument against SGT. I guess they only become suspect when you can't use them to your advantage.
I stated that this all appears to be true. I have run this by a number of qualified people who think it makes sense. Maybe I am wrong for some reason, but you need to get over your perpetual case of freshmanitis.
I don't know what "freshmanistis" is, but I think what it means is you don't really know how to counter my arguments against thought having mass, and are, therefore, diverting the issue to my attitude.

This "qualifications" thing is a new ploy you've come up with lately: if you don't like someone's facts and logic, you now declare them "unqualified".
 
  • #172
I wasn't being selective, my objection is that you make unqualified declarations that are way beyond your level of knowledge; that is unless you care to explain consciousness and refute the solution to Maxwell's paradox.
 
  • #173
Ivan Seeking said:
I wasn't being selective, my objection is that you make unqualified declarations that are way beyond your level of knowledge; that is unless you care to explain consciousness and refute the solution to Maxwell's paradox.
What is in your opinion the solution to Maxwell's paradox?
 
  • #174
Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness
Consciousness poses the most baffling problems in the science of the mind. There is nothing that we know more intimately than conscious experience, but there is nothing that is harder to explain. All sorts of mental phenomena have yielded to scientific investigation in recent years, but consciousness has stubbornly resisted. Many have tried to explain it, but the explanations always seem to fall short of the target. Some have been led to suppose that the problem is intractable, and that no good explanation can be given.

To make progress on the problem of consciousness, we have to confront it directly. In this paper, I first isolate the truly hard part of the problem, separating it from more tractable parts and giving an account of why it is so difficult to explain. [continued]
http://consc.net/papers/facing.html

Many suggest that consciousness lies in the Quantum realm. For example:
Spin-Mediated Consciousness Theory: Possible Roles of Oxygen Unpaired Electronic Spins and Neural Membrane Nuclear Spin Ensemble in Memory and Consciousness

A novel theory of consciousness is proposed in this paper. We postulate that consciousness is connected to quantum mechanical spin since said spin is embedded in the microscopic structure of spacetime and may be more fundamental than spacetime itself. Thus, we theorize that consciousness is connected with the fabric of spacetime through spin.[continued]
http://arxiv.org/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0208/0208068.pdf
 
  • #175
SGT said:
What is in your opinion the solution to Maxwell's paradox?

I already stated what I was taught in physics: Useful information contains energy. Again, this isn't my opinion, this is what I was taught. The observation and decision required for the demon to open or close the door accounts for the "missing" work.
 
Last edited:
  • #176
Specifically it was stated that userful information can do work. This means information contains energy.

It was something that seemed worth remembering so I chose to pay attention and increase my mass. :biggrin:
 
Last edited:
  • #177
Ivan Seeking said:
I already stated what I was taught in physics: Useful information contains energy. Again, this isn't my opinion, this is what I was taught. The observation and decision required for the demon to open or close the door accounts for the "missing" work.
What is the meaning of useful information? Is there useless information which does not contain energy? Who decides which information is useful and which is useless?
 
  • #178
"Useful" refers to the information being non-random. Random data cannot do work.

Edit: I don't remember how to determine the boundary conditions, but the main point was perfectly clear.
 
Last edited:
  • #179
I haven't read up on this lately, but I would assume that at the deepest level this all ties into Hawking's information paradox.
 
  • #180
Ivan Seeking said:
I wasn't being selective, my objection is that you make unqualified declarations that are way beyond your level of knowledge...
No, nothing I say is "beyond" my level of knowledge. I am always speaking from the information I have at my disposal.

I think what you actually might be meaning to say is that I speak beyond my level of formal education. If so, that is true. I don't see what the hell difference that makes here in Skepticism & Debunking, if I got my facts from books or from a university course, as long as I have my facts straight. If you doubt any particular thing I say, you can point to it, and I'll do my best to find a respectable link.
that is unless you care to explain consciousness
Here you have shifted from the concept of a thought to the concept of consciousness. They aren't interchangable words.
and refute the solution to Maxwell's paradox.
This is a straw man. I never said there was anything wrong with that solution.
 
  • #181
Ivan Seeking said:
Specifically it was stated that userful information can do work. This means information contains energy.
You must be able to find a link, no? IIRC the "paradox" wasn't Maxwell's doing, but the ruminations of someone who came after him, and the person who "solved" it was yet a third party.
 
  • #182
zoobyshoe said:
No, nothing I say is "beyond" my level of knowledge. I am always speaking from the information I have at my disposal.

You also interpret that information and state conclusions.

I think what you actually might be meaning to say is that I speak beyond my level of formal education. If so, that is true. I don't see what the hell difference that makes here in Skepticism & Debunking, if I got my facts from books or from a university course, as long as I have my facts straight. If you doubt any particular thing I say, you can point to it, and I'll do my best to find a respectable link.

You make balf face assertions that you don't know to be true.

Here you have shifted from the concept of a thought to the concept of consciousness. They aren't interchangable words.

They are intimately connected. I shouldn't beed to explain this either.


This is a straw man. I never said there was anything wrong with that solution.

You refuted my suggestion which is based on this solution. I shouldn't have to explain this either. Enough is enough.
 
  • #183
Finally, we calculate probability amplitudes from the wavefunction. You have no idea what you are saying.
 
  • #184
I didn't spot any free papers that discuss information and energy,but papers can be purchased. My information comes from lecture notes.

Balance of information in bipartite quantum-communication systems:Entanglement-energy analogy
Ryszard Horodecki1*, Michal Horodecki1§, and Pawel Horodecki2¶

1Institute of Theoretical Physics and Astrophysics, University of Gdansk, 80-952 Gdansk, Poland

2Faculty of Applied Physics and Mathematics, Technical University of Gdansk, 80-952 Gdansk, Poland

Received 16 February 2000; revised 19 June 2000; published 18 January 2001
We adopt the view that information is the primary physical entity possessing objective meaning. Based on two postulates stating that (i) entanglement is a form of quantum information corresponding to internal energy and (ii) sending qubits corresponds to work, we show that in the closed bipartite quantum-communication systems, the information is conserved. We also discuss the entanglement-energy analogy in the context of the Gibbs-Helmholtz-like equation connecting the entanglement, of formation, distillable entanglement, and bound entanglement. Then we show that in the deterministic protocols of distillation, the information is conserved. We also discuss the objectivity of quantum information in the context of information interpretation of quantum states and algorithmic complexity.
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRA/v63/i2/e022310
 
  • #185
As for the wavefunction and QED, the answer seems to be pretty much what I suggested by referencing Carlip's last statement in the quote. As near as I can tell, the following explanation is probably as good as any.
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2000-11/msg0029749.html
 
  • #186
Ivan Seeking said:
As for the wavefunction and QED, the answer seems to be pretty much what I suggested by referencing Carlip's last statement in the quote. As near as I can tell, the following explanation is probably as good as any.
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2000-11/msg0029749.html

I don't see what you get from the linked discussion. One poster seems to be making heavy weather from the fact that in QFT you resolve waves into normal modes (Quantum Simple Harmonic Oscillators QSHOs) and so (he thinks) only those have wave functions. The other has no better reply than that it is a matter of definition. More heat than light.
 
  • #187
Sorry, I worked a 22.5 hour day yesterday. I promise to do better after some sleep. :biggrin:
 
  • #188
An answer is still forthcoming. I've just been too busy to spend any time on this.

It is clear that based on the models for collapse cited by Carlip, not only is the wave function alive and well, the measurement problem is not resolved; at least not to the point of a consensus of any sort. But the proper context for Feynman's comments is required and will be posted when time allows.
 
  • #189
Okay, I finally had a little time to review this.

zoobyshoe said:
If you look at what he says about how light behaves the narrower you make a slit for it to go through (on pages 54, 55, and 56 of the paperback edition) I think he has explained the Young double slit experiment without recourse to "collapsing" wave functions. He's obviated the need for the concept of "self-interference" by explaining how a narrower slit prevents the photons that take non-conformist paths from cancelling each other out, which they will do when the slit is large enough.

One thing has nothing to do with the other. Here, Feynman is discussing an experiment which only works if we don't collapse the wavefunction. If we collapse the function by making an observation that yields position, then the effect that he discusses goes away.

Zoobyshoe said:
There is no splitting of light into "half particles" that go different places."

This example has nothing to do with the example that I gave. I cited the experiment in which one photon at a time passes through a double slit apparatus. What is cited here is simply the fact that photons always arrive in discrete units, which is usually learned on about the first day of any modern physics class.

This is the essential quote
Zoobyshoe said:
Originally Posted by zoobyshoe
Check out the pages 54, 55, and 56, and also his footnote on page 76. I am pretty sure Feynman has done away with the need for a "wave function".

He doesn't say wave function, he says that there is no wave packet which is an outdated concept that sought to describe a photon as a localized wave packet that could act like a particle. This has nothing to do with the wave function.

I want to emphasize that light comes in this form - particles. It is very important to know that light behaves like particles, especially for those of you who have gone to school, where you were probably told something about light behaving like waves. I'm telling you the way it does behave - like particles."

QED, p 15

This does not eliminate the wave function. This again addresses the particle-like nature of the photon itself.

Edit: Generally, Feynman describes a method of alternate paths that adds up to what we observe. This is really a qualitative discussion about a model for predicting the observed behavior of light that in fact depends on the wave function to yield the proper results. This is why Feynman uses a little clock to represent the phase of the wave.

If any other mentors see a problem with my answer, please post your comments. My only goal here is to avoid any do-it-yourself physics, or bad or false interpretations of these complex issues.
 
Last edited:
  • #190
What Feynman is describing is his path integral or sum-over-histories approach, which does not assume the Copenhagen interpretation and works with excitations of a field (wave packets) which are not outdated at all.

Dyson's report of what Feynman told him during their car trip out West in, I think 1948, sums it up: "The particle goes wherever it wants, including backwards in time, and you add up the [complex] actions on the different paths and they all cancel out except along the classical path."

Feynmann's path integral approach never does collapses, but rather computes propagators, and is still the favored method of quantizing a field theory.
 
  • #191
selfAdjoint said:
What Feynman is describing is his path integral or sum-over-histories approach, which does not assume the Copenhagen interpretation and works with excitations of a field (wave packets) which are not outdated at all.

Interesting, I thought the wave packet concept died long ago. In either case, this [the reduction of the packet] is what he outright dismisses in the one quote.

Feynmann's path integral approach never does collapses, but rather computes propagators, and is still the favored method of quantizing a field theory.

How does this address the problem of destroying the wave-like properties of light in a diffraction experiment where we first measure for position?

Edit: Ah, backwards in time...smell.
 
Last edited:
  • #192
So, could we get a synopsis of how this all fits into the current models? If Feynman produces solutions without the need to collapse the function, then how does this all fit with the many schools of thought about collapse, and why isn't "there is no collapse" ever mentioned as one of the options - such as those listed by Carlip? Is this model another school of thought not mentioned? Is it somehow limited in scope, or even phisophically flawed...? How does this all fit into the big picture?
 
  • #193
Well, I have asked a number of people for clarification, but since none is forthcoming we will assume here that Feynman's model is another school of thought. Instead of collapse we get time reversed particles. I don't know how else to reconcile this notion with the rest of quantum mechanics, but I won't allow an amateur debate on this or any mainstream issue of such depth. This is a problem for the experts. Informed speculation for the sake of discussion is fine as long as the proper context is maintained wrt mainstream physics. If you wish to debate the proper interpretation for this issue, please do so in the Quantum Physics forum since this topic goes beyond the scope of this forum. [Edit: I would imagine that this is appropriate for the philosophy forums as well?]

The thread is open for discussion.
 
Last edited:
  • #194
PIT2 said:
The experiment u are talking about (by Grinberg-Zylberbaum) is only briefly mentioned in the paper. The details u are requesting arent in it.

I looked into that 1994 Zylberbaum experiment(which was mentioned as a source in the Quantum Superluminal Communication paper), and discovered that it has since been duplicated at several other universities with similar results:

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00029978

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14640097

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15165411

http://www.bastyr.edu/admissions/update/fall2001.asp?jump=3

The purpose of this study is to determine whether visual evoked potentials generated in one human brain by photostimulation can generate a correlated EEG signal in the brain of another human subject who is located at a distance and who is not visually stimulated.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top