Tensor Fields - Tensor Product of Two Gradient Operators

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of the tensor product of two gradient operators, specifically (\nabla \otimes \nabla) applied to a scalar field h in cylindrical coordinates. Participants explore the implications of different interpretations of the notation and the correct formulation of the Hessian in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an expression for (\nabla \otimes \nabla) h but expresses uncertainty about its correctness.
  • Another participant questions the notation used and suggests two interpretations: one as the tensor product of gradients and the other as the Hessian, indicating that the latter requires consideration of the non-constant nature of unit vectors in polar coordinates.
  • A later reply clarifies that the original intent was to refer to the Hessian and asks for a reference to the correct expression.
  • Another participant suggests that the tensor is symmetric, implying that the choice between \mathbf{r} \otimes \mathbf{1} or \mathbf{1} \otimes \mathbf{r} may not matter, but recommends using \mathbf{r} \otimes \mathbf{1} when dotting from the left.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct expression for (\nabla \otimes \nabla) h, and there are competing views regarding the interpretation of the notation and the implications for the Hessian in cylindrical coordinates.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights ambiguities in notation and the need for clarity regarding the treatment of unit vectors in non-Cartesian coordinates, as well as the potential for multiple interpretations of tensor operations.

barnflakes
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I'm trying to re-derive a result in a paper that I'm struggling with. Here is the problem:

I wish to calculate (\nabla \otimes \nabla) h where \nabla is defined as \nabla = \frac{\partial}{\partial r} \hat{\mathbf{r}}+ \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial}{\partial \psi} \hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}} and h is a scalar field.

I got something like this:

(\nabla \otimes \nabla) = \frac{\partial^2}{\partial r^2}\hat{\mathbf{r}} \otimes \hat{\mathbf{r}} + \frac{\partial}{\partial r} \left( \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial}{\partial \psi} \right)\hat{\mathbf{r}} \otimes \hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}} + \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial^2}{\partial \psi \partial r}\hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}} \otimes \hat{\mathbf{r}} + \frac{1}{r^2} \frac{\partial^2}{\partial \psi^2} \hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}} \otimes \hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}}

but I have a feeling this is wrong.

After that I wish to calculate \mathbf{r} \cdot (\nabla \otimes \nabla) where \hat{\mathbf{r}} is a position vector in cylindrical coordinates, so \mathbf{r} = r \hat{\mathbf{r}}. However, I'm now struggling with the fact that \mathbf{r} can be written as either \mathbf{r} \otimes \mathbf{1} or \mathbf{1} \otimes \mathbf{r} and I'm not sure which one to choose.

Any insight would be much appreciated.
 
Last edited:
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barnflakes said:
I'm trying to re-derive a result in a paper that I'm struggling with. Here is the problem:

I wish to calculate (\nabla \otimes \nabla) h where \nabla is defined as \nabla = \frac{\partial}{\partial r} \hat{\mathbf{r}}+ \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial}{\partial \psi} \hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}} and h is a scalar field.

I got something like this:

(\nabla \otimes \nabla) = \frac{\partial^2}{\partial r^2}\hat{\mathbf{r}} \otimes \hat{\mathbf{r}} + \frac{\partial}{\partial r} \left( \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial}{\partial \psi} \right)\hat{\mathbf{r}} \otimes \hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}} + \frac{1}{r} \frac{\partial^2}{\partial \psi \partial r}\hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}} \otimes \hat{\mathbf{r}} + \frac{1}{r^2} \frac{\partial^2}{\partial \psi^2} \hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}} \otimes \hat{\boldsymbol{\psi}}

but I have a feeling this is wrong.

This is wrong. However, your notation is ambiguous. Do you mean

$$ (\nabla \otimes \nabla) h = \nabla h \otimes \nabla h \quad ?$$
or do you mean the Hessian

$$ (\nabla \otimes \nabla) h = (\nabla_i \nabla_j h) \, e^i \otimes e^j \quad ?$$
In either case, your expression is wrong. In particular, if what you mean is the Hessian, then you will have to take into account that your unit vectors in polar coordinates are not constant.

After that I wish to calculate \mathbf{r} \cdot (\nabla \otimes \nabla) where \hat{\mathbf{r}} is a position vector in cylindrical coordinates, so \mathbf{r} = r \hat{\mathbf{r}}. However, I'm now struggling with the fact that \mathbf{r} can be written as either \mathbf{r} \otimes \mathbf{1} or \mathbf{1} \otimes \mathbf{r} and I'm not sure which one to choose.

Your tensor is symmetric, so it doesn't matter. But in general, since you're dotting ##\mathbf{r}## from the left, you should choose ##\mathbf{r} \otimes \mathbf{1}##.
 
Thanks for your reply. In response to your first question, I mean the latter. Do you have a reference as to what the correct expression would be?
 
No, but you can Google something like "Hessian in spherical coordinates".
 

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