That Will Smith and Chris Rock thing

[Jarvis323]

It's not prejudices/biases, it's context. It matters a whole lot if the person insulting them is a stranger on the street vs a presenter at an awards show in their honor.

Or when they ALL think they are "untouchable little kings".

 

[russ_watters]

Sadistic definitely means literally exactly what I meant, and just doesn't happen to carry an embedded quantification in its severity.

If you only read a one-liner definition, sure. But you should do better than that and recognize there's an implied severity in the usage. It's the name of a mental illness! The Websters definition includes an example of sawing off a person's leg in sections! Please tell me you don't actually believe these are equivalent.

 

[russ_watters]

Or when they ALL think they are "untouchable little kings".

That isn't a response to what you quoted me saying.

 

[Vanadium 50]

ridiculously, massively, heinously bizarre hyperbole

And I've told you to knock off the hyperbole a million times!

 

[russ_watters]

It has been implied over and over again. At PF less so than elsewhere. Overall, this is a rampant implied sentiment. If the implications were in error, those statements should be clarified.

You are reading things - misreading - that they did not say. Heck, it's you who is trying to gloss-over or mix different contexts.

 

[Jarvis323]

That isn't a response to what you quoted me saying.

It's a response to your response to my response to another post (not by you), where somehow being "untouchable little kings" was said to be an important part of the context in the determination that they should be more open to insult and expected to be tougher handling it than ordinary people. If this is not a show of prejudice than I don't know what is.

 

[russ_watters]

It's a response to your response to my response to another post (not by you), where somehow being "untouchable little kings" was said to be an important part of the context in the determination that they should be more open to insult and expected to be tougher handling it than ordinary people. If this is not a show of prejudice than I don't know what is.

You've lost me here. Whatever. I'll reiterate: context matters. Severity matters. Word definitions and connotations matter.

The irony here is if you'd just tone down the hyperbole and stop putting words in peoples'mouths they didn't say (making inaccurate assumptions/interpretations), you'd probably find we aren't all that far apart. Under most scenarios of what happened (since we don't know for sure), I do think the joke went too far.

 

[DaveC426913]

... trying to imagine things from other peoples point of view, treating them as individuals, and being honest and without bias. I don't know how you are able to turn that around on me.

I can certainly imagine it from Chris Rock's point of view. It must have hurt like the dickens.

Because, you see, the question at-hand isn't about sympathizing with Will Smith, it is about sympathizing with the guy who got assaulted. Are you seriously suggesting he "deserved" it?

 

[phinds]

@Jarvis323 your vehement insistence on your own point of view and basically saying that you're right and all of the rest of us are wrong has turned this thread away from a discussion about the Chris Rock incident and into being a discussion about your point of view.

Take a deep breath.

 

[Jarvis323]

I can certainly imagine it from Chris Rock's point of view. It must have hurt like the dickens.

Because, you see, the question at-hand isn't about sympathizing with Will Smith, it is about sympathizing with the guy who got assaulted. Are you seriously suggesting he "deserved" it?

I never said he deserved it. I'm saying Will Smith and Jada deserve some empathy too. Realistically they are the ones suffering the most from the event. Of course that is on Will Smith, for the most part. But way people characterize Jada and Will Smith's roles in this is what I disagree with. It is human to be hurt by public humiliation about an embarrassing medical condition. Jada deserves to have shown that in her facial expressions when it happened. I don't know what Will Smith was thinking, but it is plausible he was acting based on empathy to his Wife's pain, and acted out of anger. He is human too. He made a mistake, and now he's paying a huge price for it. Chris rock triggered it all, but perhaps unknowingly. I am not condemning him, maybe he made a mistake too. Maybe all of this has an origin in a cultural trend and the corruption of the Oscars to serve as a spectator event for generating add money that appeals to the darker sides of humanity, rather than a ceremony to award artistic achievement. In any case, I don't think piling on criticism of Chris Rock, or Jada or Will Smith is part of a solution, its just a contribution to the overall problem as we participate in what I think is a toxic culture surrounding celebrity.

 

[DaveC426913]

Realistically they are the ones suffering the most from the event.

No.
Chris Rock was assaulted. That's a crime.

Get some perspective. Without it, your whole viewpoint has a credibility problem - no matter how many words you put in your essay-posts .

 

[Jarvis323]

You've lost me here. Whatever. I'll reiterate: context matters. Severity matters. Word definitions and connotations matter.

The irony here is if you'd just tone down the hyperbole and stop putting words in peoples'mouths they didn't say (making inaccurate assumptions/interpretations), you'd probably find we aren't all that far apart. Under most scenarios of what happened (since we don't know for sure), I do think the joke went too far.

Maybe I have exaggerated too much, or sound like I'm taking it too serious. But I find the comments like, "Actors get paid to be roasted", or "They can go home if they don't want to be insulted", or "they think they are "untouchable little kings", or "This is part of the job, and they get paid a lot to do it", to be unfair. They're people, that's it. They don't have special powers of human strength. To many females, losing your hair at a young age could be disturbing. It's literally a fairly common scene in horror movies and psychological thrillers. It's not easy for me to just write off her justification for being hurt, despite that she was at an event where being insulted is expected.

 

[DaveC426913]

But I find the comments like, "Actors get paid to be roasted", or "They can go home if they don't want to be insulted", or "they think they are "untouchable little kings", or "This is part of the job, and they get paid a lot to do it", to be fair.

How many of these things have you actually seen written here? I think I count one. You'll have to quote them if you insist.

They're people, that's it. They don't have special powers of human strength.

Necessary to withstand a one-liner roast meant in good humour?

...could be disturbing...

That's it? All this is because "could be disturbing?" That's a loooong way from "emotional violence".

...just write off her justification for being hurt...

Talk about the forest for the trees! Chris Rock was long-arm punched in front of the entire world.
Where's your empathy?

 

[Jarvis323]

Talk about the forest for the trees! Chris Rock was long-arm punched in front of the entire world.
Where's your empathy?

If the most of the world was bullying Chris Rock instead of Will and Jada Smith, then I would be focusing on standing up for him instead.

If you want a start on getting perspective and having empathy for more than one person at a time, you can read some articles about how people with alopecia feel.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katiecamero/people-with-alopecia-chris-rock-joke-oscars
https://www.thedailybeast.com/chris-rocks-alopecia-joke-was-my-worst-nightmare

 

[DaveC426913]

If the most of the world was bullying Chris Rock instead of Will and Jada Smith, then I would be focusing on standing up for him instead.

Nobody is bullying anyone. They're mad at Will Smith because he punched someone. That's a crime.

Your perspective is twisted.

 

[Jarvis323]

It is an Oscar tradition to hire (they are paid) edgy comedians to MC the awards - and what comedians do is roast celebrities. They knew this going in.

So what? Do you suggest they should have skipped it to avoid the possibility of an insult, even though Will Smith was nominated and won an award?

I'm not even that old, but I haven't watched the Oscars in years, and I have no recollection of this tradition. The concept of a roast, as far as I know, was recently popularized by the comedy central ones, where celebrities agreed to be roasted (usually for publicity), and the roasts would be deeply personal and brutal. I don't know when the roast became part of a tradition for awards ceremonies where the attendees never explicitly agreed to it. In my recollection, the Oscars used to be more about celebration and people would try to be inspirational, and express gratitude and what not.

 

[Jarvis323]

Here is some more context.

 

[DaveC426913]

So what? Do you suggest they should have skipped it to avoid the possibility of an insult, even though Will Smith was nominated and won an award?

No. I suggest that, like all adults, they take responsibility for their decisions and actions. They chose to go to the Oscars; they know Oscar humour can be edgy; they went.

We all make such decisions every time we leave the house. We don't get to punch out the source of our ire just because it bumped into us.

 

[Jarvis323]

No. I suggest that, like all adults, they take responsibility for their decisions and actions. They chose to go to the Oscars; they know Oscar humour can be edgy; they went.

We all make such decisions every time we leave the house. We don't get to punch out the source of our ire just because it bumped into us.

Why don't you try to go around insulting people in the most hurtful ways you can think of while filming them, and then when they react aggressively you can just tell them, "It's just a roast bro, relax, I'm just being edgy." And then you can profit off of it on youtube. Maybe you can even get someone to slap you, and then you can get even more clicks, and also maybe even sue them.

 

[Jarvis323]

No. I suggest that, like all adults, they take responsibility for their decisions and actions. They chose to go to the Oscars; they know Oscar humour can be edgy; they went.

We all make such decisions every time we leave the house. We don't get to punch out the source of our ire just because it bumped into us.

So you mean yes then, not no. You can't have it both ways.

 

[DaveC426913]

You keep trying to spin this as if they're the victims here. He assaulted Rock.

So you mean yes then...

I do not.

Unlike you, I'm not telling anyone what to do. I am only saying they are expected to adult. And that means take responsibility for themselves.

 

[Jarvis323]

You keep trying to spin this as if they're the victims here. He assaulted Rock.I do not.

Unlike you, I'm not telling anyone what to do. I am only saying they are expected to adult. And that means take responsibility for themselves.

So they should be tough and just take it then?

Are saying that the cost of being an actor and going to the Oscars is that you might be insulted about a sensitive personal issue? If so fine. I wouldn't prefer it that way, but maybe that is how it is. But do you have any compassion for Jada in this circumstance nevertheless? Or is that just part of the job of an actor?

 

[DaveC426913]

You are saying...

Stop telling me what I'm saying.
No matter what follows "You are saying..." it is a straw man.
You can tell what I'm saying simply by using the scroll button.

But do have any compassion for Jada in this circumstance?

Yes. It must suck that she's losing her hair.

Do you have an compassion for Chris Rock, who got his face rearranged?

You have not answered how you feel about the crime of assault and battery. Why not?

 

[Jarvis323]

Stop telling me what I'm saying.
No matter what follows "You are saying..." it is a straw man.
You can tell what I'm saying simply by using the scroll button.

You keep implying these things. If you don't mean them then clarify, because otherwise you are unintelligible.

 

[phinds]

Stop telling me what I'm saying.
No matter what follows "You are saying..." it is a straw man.
You can tell what I'm saying simply by using the scroll button.

Yes. It must suck that she's losing her hair.

Do you have an compassion for Chris Rock, who got his face rearranged?

You have not answered how you feel about the crime of assault and battery. Why not?

It's a lost cause, Dave. Give it up. He's just going to keep spouting the same nonsense over and over.

 

[DaveC426913]

You keep implying these things. If you don't mean them then clarify, because otherwise you are unintelligible.

I am not implying; you are inferring. Don't.

 

[Jarvis323]

I am not implying; you are inferring. Don't.

Then say something which has a clear meaning and is not filled with apparent implications.

 

[Jarvis323]

It's a lost cause, Dave. Give it up. He's just going to keep spouting the same nonsense over and over.

Don't you think that your interpretation of it as nonsense has something to do with confirmation bias. It's an uphill battle challenging the status quo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[Jarvis323]

Yes. It must suck that she's losing her hair.

Sounds insincere to me.

 

[DaveC426913]

You are emotional about this, and you are argumentative; every post is an attempt to bait some reaction. Technically, that is called trolling.

It's all right to be emotional, and you do not need to defend your feelings...

..unless you bring them into a forum to have a discussion. Then you are expected to defend your case with logic.

You still have not answered how you feel about the crime of assault and battery. That's telling. Give some thought to that if you want to be taken seriously moving forward.

But I'm not taking this emotional bait anymore.

:signing off:

 

[Jarvis323]

You are emotional about this, and you are argumentative; every post is an attempt to bait some reaction. Technically, that is called trolling.

It's all right to be emotional, and you do not need to defend your feelings...

..unless you bring them into a forum to have a discussion. Then you are expected to defend your case with logic.

You still have not answered how you feel about the crime of assault and battery. That's telling. Give some thought to that if you want to be taken seriously moving forward.

But I'm not taking this emotional bait anymore.

:signing off:

For someone who was worried about how homeless people are referred to (people that experience homelessness vs homeless people) and got angry that people didn't immediately agree with you or that an organization couldn't be found that was committed to that cause, I'm surprised you don't show much concern for people being publically humiliated about their medical conditions. I honestly would have throught you'd be on my side on this and am left confused.

 

[symbolipoint]

She was probably public about it because the tabloids were talking about it, and she wanted to end the madness and obsessive speculation about why she is bald. That doesn't mean she wanted it to be fodder for jokes at academy awards, and then see a resurgence of that.

Interesting Comment! and it makes me think of related things.

There were two people conversing at a social gathering: A balding man (male pattern baldness) and an old woman. The woman asked the man why he has all his hair shaved and not let it grow to normal length since he is so (relatively) young. The idea that the man finds and feels the long grown but thinning and missing hair on top of and slightly to the rear of top, seems too messy or unkept for this man, had not entered the old woman's mind; and it had to be explained to her.

 

[symbolipoint]

If you can point that out it will be helpful.

I personally think most people are oversimplifying it, by viewing the situation without context, using their own experience instead. After a joke about your baldness at the Oscars, there will be a lot of media buzz. And as a result there will be a lot of people chasing you around with cameras wherever you go, trying to catch glimpses of your hair loss, and trying to ask you questions about your balding. That being something you had already been through for several years, which has likely left you already traumatized. Maybe some people are strong enough that for them those issues are no big deal. Or maybe wealth makes it less a problem, they can just hide on an island somewhere if they want to get away. But many people are sensitive to this, and it does affect their mental health significantly. "It's just a roast" and they "signed up for it and got paid" is the hyperbole in my view.

I'm not saying responding with physical violence is excusable. Just that it is worthwhile to take a deeper look and have some empathy.

No; I did not really mean to quote your message. I am not patient enough to continue reading from page "5" to page "7" (currently) on this forum topic because it is becoming tiring; although I did post something on the topic a few minutes ago referring to Male-Pattern Baldness and a Fashion Grooming choice.

 

[Jarvis323]

This article is a good read if you want to understand how many women with alopecia feel.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/chris-rocks-alopecia-joke-was-my-worst-nightmare

In the context of a celebrity, it is a little different. Many women try to hide their baldness (read the article for in depth discussion why), but it is virtually impossible for a celebrity, because they are chased everywhere by paparazzi. I would think that would make the experience quite a bit more taxing.

 

[berkeman]

Thread closed for Moderation...

 

[berkeman]

After a Mentor discussion, the thread will stay closed. Thanks folks.