The Block Universe: Examining the Rietdijk-Putnam Argument

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The discussion centers on the "block universe" interpretation of special relativity (SR), particularly the Rietdijk-Putnam argument, which posits that all of spacetime is fixed and certain due to the relativity of simultaneity. The key premise is that events in the past of any observer's "3D world" are fixed, leading to the conclusion that all of 4D spacetime must also be fixed. However, the validity of this argument hinges on the second premise, which lacks sufficient justification, as it assumes the conclusion without proper support. Critics argue that observations can only confirm events within an observer's past light cone, challenging the notion that 3D worlds are real and fixed. Ultimately, the block universe perspective remains unestablished due to these unresolved premises and assumptions.
  • #31
atyy said:
How about in GR - is there a Cauchy surface that lies entirely within the past light cone of a single observer (for all physically important solutions)?

Of course not, but why do you ask about this?
 
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  • #32
martinbn said:
Of course not, but why do you ask about this?

I guess that if only events in the past light cone are real, then since the Cauchy surface doesn't lie entirely within the past light cone, then the Cauchy surface is not real, which would seem like a good argument that the future is not determined.
 
  • #33
atyy said:
I guess that if only events in the past light cone are real, then since the Cauchy surface doesn't lie entirely within the past light cone, then the Cauchy surface is not real, which would seem like a good argument that the future is not determined.


The future is determined by the data on the Cauchy surface, and a Cauchy surface exists through every point in the spacetime. Being real is different.
 
  • #34
Wow, lots of good discussion! :smile: Rather than try to respond individually, let me clarify a few points that I think will address the main questions that have been raised in the discussion.

(1) As DaleSpam noted, in the OP I am not, strictly speaking, advocating any particular positive viewpoint. I am only trying to show that a particular claim, that the observed fact of relativity of simultaneity is sufficient to *require* the block universe interpretation of SR, is not valid. (A quick note: I said "SR" in the OP, but I don't see how the logic would be changed at all if we extended the argument to cover any spacetime that was a solution of the EFE--or perhaps any spacetime with a Cauchy surface; more on that below. SR, as far as the argument in the OP goes, can really be considered as just one particular solution of the EFE, Minkowski spacetime; none of the key features of the argument rely on properties that are particular to that spacetime, like global flatness.)

That said, I do, of course, have a positive viewpoint, and I might as well give it. In our ordinary thinking about what is "real", we do draw a key distinction between "past" and "future": we view the "past" as fixed and certain, unchangeable, whereas we view the "future" as not yet certain, changeable. So we view the "past" as "real" in a way that the "future" is not. (Note that the block universe argument I describe in the OP implicitly adopts this view as well; the quote from Penrose I gave, that states the argument, draws a distinction between events which are "fixed and certain" and events which are not. More on that below.)

However, as I noted in the OP, that view is based on Newtonian, non-relativistic physics. Once we admit relativity into our worldview, we have to admit the existence of a third category, "elsewhere", consisting of events that are neither "past" nor "future" in our usual senses of those terms. The question then becomes, what is the "reality category", so to speak, of events that are in the "elsewhere" region? The argument that block universe proponents make, the claim that relativity of simultaneity requires the block universe interpretation, implicitly assumes that events in "elsewhere" must be put in the same "reality category" as events in the "past" (i.e., events in our past light cone). My argument in the OP is simply that that assumption is not logically required--its truth is consistent with relativity, but so is its falsity--and without it, the argument that relativity of simultaneity requires the block universe interpretation does not go through. But my own view is that the assumption is just plain false: if push comes to shove and we have to choose, we should put "elsewhere" events in the same "reality category" as "future" events (i.e., events in our future light cone). (My actual preference would be to just admit that there are three separate categories, not two, and leave it at that. But many people's intuitions can't seem to find room for that.)

(2) Just as a note, if you're looking for a quick summary of the point of view I was arguing in the OP, this quote gives it:

PeterDonis said:
Now, in those PF threads I referred to on this topic, a lot of electronic ink was spilled in arguing for proposition (1). However, all of that was really a waste of time, because I already *agree* with proposition (1)! (And so, I suspect, do others who posted in those threads expressing similar objections to mine.) Proposition (1), in itself, is not the problem. Nobody needs to be convinced that, given its premises, the conclusion of proposition (1) is true. The problem is the premises, specifically the second one.

In other words, I'm not saying that the *argument* I described in the OP, that block universe proponents give, is invalid, logically speaking. I'm saying that one of its *premises* is not established. And I'm focusing attention on that particular premise because *that* is where the real argument is; block universe proponents seem to want to just gloss over that premise as too obvious to need justification, but it isn't--it's the crux of the issue.

(3) I think it's important to distinguish our models of reality from reality itself. Any 4-dimensional spacetime, any solution of the EFE (including Minkowski spacetime), is a *model* of reality. In the model, of course the entire 4-d spacetime is determined; within the model, there is no reason to pick out any particular portion of the 4-d spacetime as being "more real" than any other. But the *reason* for that is that, within the model, the initial conditions are determined--or, more generally, the conditions on some Cauchy surface of the spacetime (assuming there is one--but the main spacetimes that get lots of practical use, Schwarzschild, Kerr, FRW, etc., and Minkowski of course, all have Cauchy surfaces) are determined, and of course it's a theorem that determining the conditions everywhere on one Cauchy surface is sufficient to determine the entire spacetime.

But in reality, we never know the conditions on an entire Cauchy surface. We only know the conditions in our past light cone, which does not completely cover any Cauchy surface. So we can never be sure that any given model, any given 4-d spacetime, exactly matches reality, *except* in our past light cone. There will always be multiple 4-d spacetimes (strictly speaking, an infinite number of them) that are consistent with the data in our past light cone. We can talk about some being more probable than others--a spacetime in which the Sun is exploding "right now", i.e., in a surface of simultaneity passing through Earth at this instant, is just as consistent with our past light cone data as one in which the Sun continues to shine normally, but I think most would agree that the former is much less probable. But we can never be *sure* which model is correct, for a given region of spacetime, until we have all the data from that region--until we actually *see* the Sun still shining normally, eight minutes from now, and thereby verify that it didn't explode. And at that point, the relevant events are in our past light cone; so we can never be forced to view any events outside our past light cone as "real" in the way we are forced to view events within our past light cone as "real".

Note, btw, that I have said "our" past light cone above. Surely, we are tempted to say, events outside our past light cone (like events happening in the Andromeda galaxy "right now") are in the past light cone of some other event in 4-d spacetime? But that is simply making the same error that I described above: confusing the model with reality. Yes, in our current *model* of 4-d spacetime that describes the universe, there are plenty of events which have, in their past light cone, events happening "right now" in the Andromeda galaxy. But that's the model, not reality.

To put it another way: if we're going to admit any distinction at all between different "categories of reality", the only sound basis on which to draw the distinction is our current past light cone, given our particular current location in spacetime, according to our best current model of it. If we refuse to admit any such distinction, then of course we can say that all events are "equally real", as block universe proponents want to say: but that's not an argument, it's just assuming the conclusion.

(4) I confess I am as confused as DaleSpam is by the repeated assertions about solipsism. It particularly confuses me in response to the OP in this thread, since I specifically addressed precisely that question:

PeterDonis said:
(2-1) The only alternative to the second premise is solipsism (only my present event is real).

...

Proposition (2-1) is false, because there *is* another alternative to the second premise that accounts for all of our observations:

(3) All events in the past light cone of a given event are real (i.e., fixed and certain) for an observer at that event.

In other words, the key issue is not "does anything exist besides me at the present moment?"--*nobody* is taking the solipsist viewpoint that the answer to that question is "no". The question is whether we are justified in considering any events outside our past light cone as fixed and certain, the way we consider "past" events (events in our past light cone) to be fixed and certain. My answer to that is "no", but that's a long, long way from solipsism.

Note, also, that I am carefully not using the word "exist" at all, and I'm putting the word "real" in scare-quotes whenever I can, and I'm trying to use the term "fixed and certain" as a better way of describing the distinction that's at issue. The question is not whether, say, there are "real" events happening in the Andromeda galaxy "right now"; the word "real" is simply too imprecise and too charged with different connotations to different people to be a useful one in this connection. But asking whether there are events happening in the Andromeda galaxy "right now" that we, here on Earth right now, can view as being fixed and certain, is much more precise and admits of a much more definite and useful answer: no, there aren't, because any such events would be outside our past light cone, here on Earth right now. We won't know for sure that any such events happened, much less exactly what happened at them, for another couple million years, when they move inside our past light cone.

Btw, I am also *not* saying that events in our past light cone are "present" events. Of course they're not: they're past events. The word "present" is another of those words that, while useful in a colloquial sense, breaks down when you try to push it too far. Strictly speaking, from the viewpoint of a given spacetime model, the "present" of any given observer is just a single event--more precisely, once you pick a particular event on a particular observer's worldline, you are *defining* that single event as that observer's "present" for the purpose of whatever problem you are analyzing. What we actually perceive as the "present", in our everyday lives, is really a small segment of our past light cone, since it takes time for our sensory apparatus to send signals to our brains and for our brains to process those signals and produce our conscious experience. So the "present" we perceive is, from the viewpoint of a spacetime model, a kind of illusion. But that's probably getting into areas like cognitive science that are out of scope for this forum.
 
  • #35
atyy said:
Global hyperbolicity (which martinbn mentioned) is equivalent (I think) to the existence of a Cauchy surface in GR.

Yes, it is. I believe this is shown in Hawking & Ellis.
 
  • #36
I must not understand what is meant by Cauchy surface. How can any theory which is not a theory of everything have a Cauchy surface? I thought that having a Cauchy surface meant that given a complete initial condition the future and past were uniquely determined. But unless you have a theory of everything I don't see how that could ever be true.
 
  • #37
DaleSpam said:
I must not understand what is meant by Cauchy surface. How can any theory which is not a theory of everything have a Cauchy surface? I thought that having a Cauchy surface meant that given a complete initial condition the future and past were uniquely determined. But unless you have a theory of everything I don't see how that could ever be true.

In my understanding, we are just assuming its existence without evidence, for convenience in model building. It's a bit like assuming the topology of our universe is "space X time". It's just a property of all models in the model class we are restricting ourselves to by convention, even though we don't know which model in the model class is the best fit to the data.

martinbn mentioned the strong cosmic censorship conjecture, which is related to global hyperbolicity. Wuthrich's thesis http://philosophyfaculty.ucsd.edu/faculty/wuthrich/pub/WuthrichChristianPhD2006Final.pdf discusses many of these issues, and he writes "The strong version of this conjecture claims that no singularity—except a possible initial singularity—can ever emanate causal signals to any observer living in a physically realistic spacetime. In other words, the strong cosmic censorship conjecture demands that all physically realistic spacetimes be globally hyperbolic.".

Interestingly, he also writes "Although no proof or disproof of the conjecture has so far been forthcoming in spite of vast efforts, there is evidence that it may be violated, even in its weak form, in nongeneric situations of highly symmetric gravitational collapse. Simultaneously, the corpus of evidence suggesting that the conjecture, at least in its weak form, may be true for generic physically realistic spacetimes has significantly grown over the last years. The violation of either or both of the cosmic censorship hypotheses has consequences for the validity of determinism."
 
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  • #38
DaleSpam said:
I thought that having a Cauchy surface meant that given a complete initial condition the future and past were uniquely determined.

AFAIK the term "Cauchy surface" is particular to GR; it's not a general term used in various physical theories. Given initial conditions on a Cauchy surface, the *spacetime geometry* everywhere in the spacetime is uniquely determined. That would also uniquely determine the stress-energy tensor everywhere in the spacetime, via the EFE. But it would not uniquely determine anything else that was not uniquely determined by the spacetime geometry or the SET. (For example, it wouldn't uniquely determine quantum states everywhere, since there can be multiple quantum states with the same classical SET as their best classical approximation.)
 
  • #39
Would it be correct that there is no contradiction in "believing" in the "block universe" as well as the idea that only things in the past light cone are "real" or "fixed and certain"? For example, I usually consider the Newtonian universe a block universe, just because it is deterministic. However, I also acknowledge that the past and future seem different. These can both be true. At the microscopic level, fine grained entropy does not increase and the future is as determined as the past. At the coarse grained (thermodynamic and/or psychological) level, entropy increases, and the future is more uncertain than the past.

In GR, we can have the block universe by assumption (I agree the argument from simultaneity is silly, so let's just tautologically assume it by virtue of our chosen model class - deterministic globally hyperbolic models of classical GR), and we can also have thermodynamic time and psychological time, and psychological time coincides with the assignment of events in the past light cone as fixed and certain.

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/259
Hrvoje Nikolic, Block time: Why many physicists still don't accept it?

http://www.cpt.univ-mrs.fr/~rovelli/book.pdf
Carlo Rovelli, Quantum Gravity (see section 2.4.4)
 
  • #40
I draw a distinction between a deterministic theory and a block universe interpretation (philosophy). A theory (deterministic or not) can have many predictions confirmed or falsified, while a block universe interpretation can never be falsified, nor confirmed (over a a more parsimonious interpretation of the same theory).

I have never considered Newtonian physics as requiring a block universe interpretation, nor SR, nor GR, though all are deterministic as classical theories.

To me, the most natural non-block universe interpretation of Newtonian physics relies on the shared division into past and future of all observers at a given position and time, irrespective of motion and past. Then, the past is considered to have already happened, the future not so, irrespective of whether it is determined by the past.

In SR/GR, simultaneity surfaces are not shared by all observers at an event, and there is no preferred such surface for non-inertial observers, and no preferred such surface globally in GR for any observer. However, all observers at an event do share a fundamental surface - the past light cone. To me, this is the unique natural generalization to SR/GR of the Newtonian past/future boundary. It shares with the Newtonian boundary that it is unaffected by observer state of motion, and is not dependent on any convention. That this boundary differs for non-colocated observers in SR/GR is just something to accept about the these theories as distinct from Newtonian physics.
 
  • #41
atyy said:
Would it be correct that there is no contradiction in "believing" in the "block universe" as well as the idea that only things in the past light cone are "real" or "fixed and certain"?

It depends on what you mean by "block universe". The meaning of that term that I have been assuming in this thread (because it's the one used by the people I was arguing against in those previous threads I referred to in the OP) is that "block universe" means "all events in 4-d spacetime are fixed and certain". This is obviously inconsistent with believing that only events in the past light cone are fixed and certain.

But of course the term "block universe" could have other meanings which are not inconsistent with the belief that only events in the past light cone are fixed and certain. For example, if all you mean by "block universe" is "our models of the universe are deterministic", then obviously there is no inconsistency, since determinism only leads to all events in 4-d spacetime being fixed and certain if you have initial data on an entire Cauchy surface, which the past light cone is not (as I noted in a previous post).
 
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  • #42
PeterDonis said:
It depends on what you mean by "block universe". The meaning of that term that I have been assuming in this thread (because it's the one used by the people I was arguing against in those previous threads I referred to in the OP) is that "block universe" means "all events in 4-d spacetime are fixed and certain". This is obviously inconsistent with believing that only events in the past light cone are fixed and certain.

But of course the term "block universe" could have other meanings which are not inconsistent with the belief that only events in the past light cone are fixed and certain. For example, if all you mean by "block universe" is "our models of the universe are deterministic", then obviously there is no inconsistency, since determinism only leads to all events in 4-d spacetime being fixed and certain if you have initial data on an entire Cauchy surface, which the past light cone is not (as I noted in a previous post).

Are not the past light cones of ALL events fixed and certain?
Are there events that do not fall within the past light cone of any other event?
 
  • #43
bahamagreen said:
Are there events that do not fall within the past light cone of any other event?

I'll answer this second question first: not in any spacetime that's globally hyperbolic, which means any spacetime we're interested in here. (I think the sufficient condition to make your statement true may actually be more general, but I don't have time to dig out my copy of Hawking & Ellis for review right now. :wink:)

bahamagreen said:
Are not the past light cones of ALL events fixed and certain?

"Fixed and certain" is relative; it depends on which event you, the person trying to decide what is "real", are at, at the instant of your personal proper time when you are trying to decide.

More precisely, the interpretation I have just given is just as consistent, logically, with relativity as the interpretation implied by what I quoted from you (which is just the "block universe" interpretation, in the strong version I have been using that term to denote). So it is not valid to claim that the strong interpretation (all events are fixed and certain) is *required* by relativity. That is the claim I was arguing against in the OP.
 
  • #44
bahamagreen said:
Are not the past light cones of ALL events fixed and certain?
Are there events that do not fall within the past light cone of any other event?

I offered a "eat your cake and have it" interpretation in post #39, which is a redefinition of "block universe" as correctly understood by PAllen in #41 and Peter Donis in #42. In this point of view, the block universe is fundamental by postulation of the model class and has no fundamental arrow of time. But we allow initial conditions and a coarse graining so that there is an emergent arrow of time, and a further coarse graining so that there are emergent observers each with a sense of self. Furthermore, I pick out a special observer which is me in the model. Then "fixed and certain" is the subjective description by me of particular events, which by definition of its subjectivity and common sense in everyday life are only those events in my past light cone. And straightaway you can see this is really an emergent approximate description since I am not really a point in spacetime at the fundamental level, and there are some things like death and taxes which I believe to also be fixed and certain, though they are not yet labels I can assign to specific events.
 
  • #45
Second question's answer seems fine.

First question's answer is the issue. "Fixed and certain" is relative to the observer, in that each will have a different past light cone within which to map this F&C region with respect the the observer's event.
To the degree that an observer's past light cone falls entirely within a second observer's past light cone, I'm not seeing how the first observer avoids abstracting the inference that some regions of his future light cone fall within the second observer's past light cone, and that all events in the first observers' future light cone must fall within the past light cones of other observers.

How does the first observer not avoid the conclusion that if his future light cone is F&C for others it must also be so for himself (not observationally, but geometrically logically)?

The observer does not positively know his future LC is F&C or not. But if the observer doesn't know, yet other observers do know, then doesn't the certain and consistent knowledge by others that one's FLC is F&C trump one's lack of certainty, by this abstraction?

If there are people in the room who know how many marbles are in the bag, but I don't know, then it is true that this knowledge is relative to we observers in the room. But someone showing up and asking, "Show of hands, how many are certain of the number of marbles in the bag?" seeing any hands raised in response is going to conclude that the number is F&C, despite my not knowing. If I trust all the others, I must abstract and conclude that the number of marbles in the bag is F&C.
 
  • #46
bahamagreen said:
"Fixed and certain" is relative to the observer, in that each will have a different past light cone within which to map this F&C region with respect the the observer's event.

A more correct statement is: "Fixed and certain" is relative to the observer, *and* to the particular event on the observer's worldline that we choose as "the present".

bahamagreen said:
To the degree that an observer's past light cone falls entirely within a second observer's past light cone

More correctly: that an observer's past light cone, at a given event on that observer's worldline (call that event O), falls entirely within a second observer's past light cone, at some event on the second observer's worldline (call that event S).

You are correct that this will only happen if event S is in the future light cone of event O. But for that very reason, the first observer, at event O, will not view event S as a "present" event for the second observer--i.e., he will not, at event O, view the past light cone of event S as fixed and certain for the second observer (and therefore he won't for himself either). The only events on the second observer's worldline that the first observer must view as fixed and certain, at event O, are those in the intersection of the second observer's worldline and the past light cone of event O. Event S is not such an event; so as far as the first observer is concerned, at event O, event S is in the second observer's future, just as it is in his own (the first observer's) future.

bahamagreen said:
How does the first observer not avoid the conclusion that if his future light cone is F&C for others it must also be so for himself (not observationally, but geometrically logically)?

Because light cones are properties of events, and because, as above, the only events on the second observer's worldline that the first observer must view as fixed and certain are those in the past light cone of event O (i.e., of whatever event on the first observer's worldline is viewed as "the present"). No event on the second observer's worldline can both be in the past light cone of event O, *and* have a past light cone that contains entirely the past light cone of event O.

bahamagreen said:
if the observer doesn't know, yet other observers do know

"Know" is relative to events, just as "past light cone" is. See above.

bahamagreen said:
If there are people in the room who know how many marbles are in the bag, but I don't know, then it is true that this knowledge is relative to we observers in the room. But someone showing up and asking, "Show of hands, how many are certain of the number of marbles in the bag?" seeing any hands raised in response is going to conclude that the number is F&C, despite my not knowing. If I trust all the others, I must abstract and conclude that the number of marbles in the bag is F&C.

And at the event on your worldline at which you have all this information, all of the events in question, the events at which other observers displayed knowledge of the number of marbles in the bag, are in your past light cone. So you never need to attribute "knowledge" to other observers at events outside your past light cone.
 
  • #47
Peter, thank you; you are very gracious to bear with me and make the detailed reply.

The part about O and S helps a lot. I'm still struggling, but I think you have identified my misconception about the light cones with - "...he will not, at event O, view the past light cone of event S as fixed and certain for the second observer (and therefore he won't for himself either)."

That is a "stronger" form of saying "Fixed and certain is relative to the observer"; my misconception was using a "weak" sense of it thinking that observers would view trivially different but always consistent F&C... I did not extend this strongly to realize that observers would disagree about F&C.

I'm still working to figure out how to grasp this, but this was a missing piece. I don't understand it yet, but I agree this makes the second premise a real issue.
 

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