The gyroscope and its ability to avoid "falling down"

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  • Thread starter Thread starter Luigi Fortunati
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    Gyroscope
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanics of gyroscopes and their ability to maintain stability during rotation, particularly in relation to forces acting on a stone in a spinning slingshot. Participants explore the roles of centripetal and centrifugal forces, gravity, and the components of tension in the string.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the gyroscope's ability to avoid falling is due to a force that counteracts gravity, which they identify as a combination of centripetal and centrifugal forces.
  • Others argue that centrifugal force is fictitious and cannot act on the stone unless in a rotating reference frame, emphasizing that only gravity and the tension in the string are relevant forces.
  • Several participants discuss the breakdown of the tension force into horizontal and vertical components, with the vertical component counteracting gravity and the horizontal component providing centripetal acceleration.
  • There is contention regarding whether the centripetal and centrifugal forces can be considered to cancel each other out, with some insisting they do while others maintain that they do not affect the net force acting on the stone.
  • Participants express differing views on the implications of these forces for the motion of the stone and the stability of the gyroscope.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the role of centrifugal force or the interaction between centripetal and centrifugal forces. Multiple competing views remain regarding the mechanics involved in the gyroscopic effect and the forces acting on the stone in the slingshot.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the need for clarity on the definitions of forces involved and the conditions under which they apply, particularly regarding the use of rotating reference frames and the implications for net force calculations.

  • #61
Luigi Fortunati said:
So we are forced to say that acceleration is not proportional to force in general but only to the "net" force
Yes, that should be clear to anyone who has studied Newton's 2nd law. The f in f=ma is the net force.

Luigi Fortunati said:
So not all forces are proportional to acceleration but only a certain type of force.
The net force is not a type of force. It is the sum of all forces of any type acting on a given object.

Luigi Fortunati said:
Imagine that the stone is not there and that the rope is formed by a series of elastic rings hooked to each other, in a row.

Then we grab one end of this sling with the hand and let it rotate: the rings lose their roundness and lengthen in the radial direction, on one side (the centripetal one) and on the other (the centrifugal one).

Here is the unequivocal "measure" of the two forces, the rings that lengthen!

It is an extraordinarily clear proof: the rings are longer (on one side and the other) because there is a force that pulls on one side and another force that pulls on the other!
Note that the two forces you describe here act on the rope (or the rings), not the stone. This does not contradict anything that any of us said above regarding the forces on the stone, and I suspect that nobody would object to it.

Luigi Fortunati said:
I do not intend to suppress my ideas to adapt myself to the opinion of the majority
Stubbornly clinging to misconceptions is not a virtue, particularly when correct concepts have been taught to you. You are choosing ignorance instead of knowledge. It is not a teacher's job to exhaust themselves trying to shove knowledge into an unwilling recipient, and a student who demands that a teacher do that in order to teach them is simply being selfish and inconsiderate of other's efforts. You, in particular, have been taught correct principles here, but for whatever reason you are unwilling to learn them. That is fine, it is not mandatory for you to learn, but participation here is a privilege that this community reserves for those who are willing to learn from the community.

For future readers who may be interested, the math that I had requested @Luigi Fortunati to work out is fairly straightforward. It is easiest to work in polar coordinates, the acceleration is given by equation 4 at https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronau...fall-2009/lecture-notes/MIT16_07F09_Lec05.pdf

##\mathbf{a}=(\ddot{r}-r \dot{\theta}^2)\mathbf{e_r}+(r\ddot{\theta}+2\dot{r}\dot{\theta})\mathbf{e_{\theta}}##

For simplicity, if we let ##\theta=\omega t## and ##r=r_0+b t## then ##\mathbf{a}=-r\omega^2 \mathbf{e_r} + 2 b \omega \mathbf{e_{\theta}}##. Since ##-r\omega^2## is always negative, the radial component of the acceleration is always directed inwards.
 
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