The ``kinematic equation'' of fluid flows

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and implications of a kinematic equation related to fluid flows, particularly in the context of vector fields and surface integrals. Participants explore various mathematical approaches to derive the equation, referencing concepts such as Reynolds transport theorem, divergence-free conditions, and Lagrangian versus Eulerian perspectives.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the equation is a corollary of Reynolds transport theorem and seeks a clear derivation method.
  • Another participant notes that the equation holds under the condition that the vector field is divergence-free, providing a detailed derivation based on this assumption.
  • A participant questions the clarity of the previous derivation and proposes using a change of variables to simplify the integral using the dominated convergence theorem.
  • Another participant introduces the Lagrangian view of fluid dynamics, discussing how fluid parcels relate to the equation and how derivatives can be expressed in this context.
  • One participant expresses difficulty in progressing with their calculation and seeks assistance with a specific term in their derivation.
  • A participant presents a general fact involving the Lie derivative and Stokes' theorem, suggesting its relevance to the discussion.
  • Another participant elaborates on parametrizing the surface and discusses how to handle derivatives in the context of fixed versus moving surfaces.
  • Some participants agree on the relevance of the change of variables formula in the context of the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no clear consensus on the best method for deriving the kinematic equation, with multiple competing approaches and perspectives presented. Participants express differing opinions on the clarity and applicability of various derivation techniques.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific mathematical techniques and theorems, such as the dominated convergence theorem and Stokes' theorem, but the discussion includes unresolved assumptions and dependencies on definitions that may affect the derivations.

hunt_mat
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I saw this in a fluid book and I want to get a clean derivation
I saw this in a textbook and I thought it is a corollary of Reynold's transport theorem. Let \mathbf{F} be a smooth vector field Consider the surface integral:
\int_{S}\mathbf{F}\cdot d\mathbf{S} and now take the derivative of it, then the expression can be written as:
\frac{d}{dt}\int_{S}\mathbf{F}\cdot d\mathbf{S}=\int_{S}\frac{\partial\mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\cdot d\mathbf{S}-\int_{\partial S}(\mathbf{u}\times\mathbf{F})\cdot d\mathbf{r}.

Is anyone familiar with this equation? Does anyone know of a nice clear vector analysis way of deriving it? I've looked in Batchelor but couldn't find a derivation.
 
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This equation will hold so long as ##\mathbf{F}(t,\mathbf{r})## is divergence-free, ##\nabla \cdot \mathbf{F} = 0##. Begin with the definition of the derivative, \begin{align*}
\dfrac{d}{dt} \int_{S(t)} \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S} = \lim_{h \rightarrow 0} \dfrac{1}{h} \left[ \int_{S(t+h)} \mathbf{F}(t+h) \cdot d\mathbf{S} - \int_{S(t)} \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S} \right]
\end{align*}Expand ##\mathbf{F}(t+h) = \mathbf{F}(t) + h \dfrac{\partial \mathbf{F}}{\partial t} + O(h^2)##, then\begin{align*}
\dfrac{d}{dt} \int_{S(t)} \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S} &= \int_{S(t)} \dfrac{\partial \mathbf{F}}{\partial t} \cdot d\mathbf{S} + \lim_{h \rightarrow 0} \dfrac{1}{h} \left[ \int_{S(t+h)} \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S} - \int_{S(t)} \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S} \right] \\ \\
&\equiv \int_{S(t)} \dfrac{\partial \mathbf{F}}{\partial t} \cdot d\mathbf{S} + \lim_{h \rightarrow 0} \dfrac{1}{h} \left( \int_{S(t+h)} - \int_{S(t)} \right) \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S}
\end{align*}Between times ##t## and ##t+h##, the boundary ##\partial S## of ##S## sweeps out a surface ##B(t)## such that ##S(t+h)##, ##B(t)## and ##S(t)## together make a closed surface. Given that ##\nabla \cdot \mathbf{F} = 0##, then keeping in mind the orientations of ##S(t)## and ##S(t+h)##:\begin{align*}
\left(\int_{S(t+h)} + \int_{B(t)} -\int_{S(t)} \right) \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S} &= 0 \\ \\
\left(\int_{S(t+h)} -\int_{S(t)} \right) \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S} &= -\int_{B(t)} \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S}
\end{align*}If the boundary ##\partial S## of ##S## moves with a velocity ##\mathbf{u}(t)##, then the surface element of ##B(t)## is nothing but the vector area ##d\mathbf{r} \times h\mathbf{u}(t)## where ##d\mathbf{r}## is the line element along ##\partial S##. Therefore\begin{align*}
\left(\int_{S(t+h)} -\int_{S(t)} \right) \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{S} &= -\int_{B(t)} \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{r} \times h\mathbf{u}(t) \\ \\
&= -h\int_{B(t)} \mathbf{u}(t) \times \mathbf{F}(t) \cdot d\mathbf{r}
\end{align*}which finishes the derivation.
 
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Thanks for this but it wasn't quite the "clean" method I was asking. If I represent d\mathbf{S}=\hat{\mathbf{n}}(t)dS, then can't I use a change of variables to transform the surface into a "fixed" surface S_{0} then we can take the derivative directly into the integral via the dominated convergence theorem as a partial derivative.
 
hunt_mat said:
Thanks for this but it wasn't quite the "clean" method I was asking. If I represent d\mathbf{S}=\hat{\mathbf{n}}(t)dS, then can't I use a change of variables to transform the surface into a "fixed" surface S_{0} then we can take the derivative directly into the integral via the dominated convergence theorem as a partial derivative.

Not quite. You can use the Lagrangian view of the fluid, in which \mathbf{X} represents the fluid parcel which started at \mathbf{X} at t = 0. A surface which moves with the fluid is then fixed in this view, and if \mathbf{x} is position in the Eulerian depiction (in which \mathbf{x} is fixed and the fluid moves past it) then <br /> \left( \frac{\partial \mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\right)_{\mathbf{X}} =\left(\frac{\partial \mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\right)_{\mathbf{x}} + (\mathbf{u} \cdot \mathbf{\nabla})\mathbf{F} and <br /> (\mathbf{x},t) = \left(\mathbf{X} + \int_0^t \mathbf{u}(\mathbf{X},t&#039;)\,dt&#039;,t\right).
 
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I've started the calculation but I've gotten stuck:
<br /> \begin{gather*}<br /> \frac{d}{dt}\int_{S_{t}}\mathbf{f}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{n}} = \frac{d}{dt}\int_{S_{0}}J\mathbf{F}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{N}}dS_{0} \\<br /> = \int_{S_{0}}\frac{\partial J}{\partial t}\mathbf{F}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{N}}+J\frac{\partial\mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{N}}+J\mathbf{F}\cdot\frac{\partial\hat{\mathbf{N}}}{\partial t}dS_{0} \\<br /> = \int_{S_{t}}\mathbf{f}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{n}}\nabla\cdot\mathbf{u}+\frac{D\mathbf{f}}{Dt}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{n}}dS+\int_{S_{0}}J\mathbf{F}\cdot\frac{\partial\hat{\mathbf{N}}}{\partial t}dS_{0}<br /> \end{gather*}<br />

I think the first two terms combine to yield:
\frac{\partial\mathbf{f}}{\partial t}+\nabla\cdot((\mathbf{f}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{n}})\mathbf{u})
I don't know what to do with the final term.
 
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The general fact is as follows
$$\frac{d}{dt}\Big|_{t=0}\int_{g_v^t(S)}\omega =\int_SL_v\omega,$$
where ##g^t_v## is a flow of the vector field ##v(x)## and ##L_v## is the Lie derivative.
One can also employ the formula ##L_v\omega=i_vd\omega+di_v\omega## and then use the Stokes theorem
 
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Parametrize S(t) as \mathbf{x}(s_1,s_2,t) for (s_1,s_2) \in \Omega \subset \mathbb{R}^2. Then <br /> \frac{d}{dt} \int_{S(t)} \mathbf{F} \cdot d\mathbf{S} = \frac{d}{dt} \int_{\Omega} \mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{n}\,ds_1\,ds_2. Now \Omega is independent of t so we can pull the derivative inside the integral, but it becomes a partial derivative at fixed s = (s_1,s_2). We then have <br /> \left(\frac{\partial\mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\right)_{s} = \left(\frac{\partial\mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\right)_{\mathbf{x}} + (\mathbf{u} \cdot \nabla) \mathbf{F}. We also have <br /> \begin{split}<br /> \left(\frac{\partial n_i}{\partial t}\right)_s &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \left( \frac{\partial x_j}{\partial s_1}\frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_2}\right) \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \left(\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_2} + \frac{\partial u_k}{\partial s_2} \frac{\partial x_j}{\partial s_1}\right) \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \left(\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_2} - \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial s_2} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_1}\right) \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l}\left(\frac{\partial x_l}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_2} - \frac{\partial x_l}{\partial s_2} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_1}\right) \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l} \left(\delta_{lp}\delta_{kq} - \delta_{lq}\delta_{kp}\right)\frac{\partial x_p}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_q}{\partial x_2} \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l} \epsilon_{lkm}\epsilon_{mpq} \frac{\partial x_p}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_q}{\partial x_2} \\<br /> &amp;= -\epsilon_{ijk} \epsilon_{klm} \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l} n_m \\<br /> &amp;= \left(\delta_{im}\delta_{jl} - \delta_{il}\delta_{jm}\right) \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l} n_m\\<br /> &amp;= n_i\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_j} - n_j \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_i}.<br /> \end{split} Hence <br /> \left(\frac{\partial}{\partial t} (\mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{n}) \right)_s = \left(\frac{\partial \mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\right)_{\mathbf{x}} \cdot \mathbf{n} + \mathbf{n} \cdot \left(((\mathbf{u} \cdot \nabla)\mathbf{F}) + <br /> \mathbf{F} (\nabla \cdot \mathbf{u}) - (\mathbf{F} \cdot \nabla)\mathbf{u}\right). I think the last three terms can be rearranged into -\mathbf{n} \cdot (\nabla \times(\mathbf{u} \times \mathbf{F})) on the assumption that \nabla \cdot \mathbf{F} = 0.
 
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wrobel said:
The general fact is as follows
$$\frac{d}{dt}\Big|_{t=0}\int_{g_v^t(S)}\omega =\int_SL_v\omega,$$
where ##g^t_v## is a flow of the vector field ##v(x)## and ##L_v## is the Lie derivative.
One can also employ the formula ##L_v\omega=i_vd\omega+di_v\omega## and then use the Stokes theorem
This looks like a change of variables formula, am I right?
 
  • #10
wrobel said:
sure
It's been a while since I've done integration on manifolds (~20 years), so you'll need to walk through this, I'm guessing that I would use the reverse flow of the vector field as the change of variable and that would mean I would have to pull back and taking the derivative inside the integral means that I get the Lie derivative?
 
  • #11
yes by definition it will be the Lie derivative and all the formulas above are the special cases of this construction
 
  • #12
wrobel said:
yes by definition it will be the Lie derivative and all the formulas above are the special cases of this construction
I'm currently looking at the maths, I will want to write down a proof for this statement.
 
  • #13
pasmith said:
Parametrize S(t) as \mathbf{x}(s_1,s_2,t) for (s_1,s_2) \in \Omega \subset \mathbb{R}^2. Then <br /> \frac{d}{dt} \int_{S(t)} \mathbf{F} \cdot d\mathbf{S} = \frac{d}{dt} \int_{\Omega} \mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{n}\,ds_1\,ds_2. Now \Omega is independent of t so we can pull the derivative inside the integral, but it becomes a partial derivative at fixed s = (s_1,s_2). We then have <br /> \left(\frac{\partial\mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\right)_{s} = \left(\frac{\partial\mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\right)_{\mathbf{x}} + (\mathbf{u} \cdot \nabla) \mathbf{F}. We also have <br /> \begin{split}<br /> \left(\frac{\partial n_i}{\partial t}\right)_s &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \left( \frac{\partial x_j}{\partial s_1}\frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_2}\right) \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \left(\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_2} + \frac{\partial u_k}{\partial s_2} \frac{\partial x_j}{\partial s_1}\right) \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \left(\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_2} - \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial s_2} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_1}\right) \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l}\left(\frac{\partial x_l}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_2} - \frac{\partial x_l}{\partial s_2} \frac{\partial x_k}{\partial s_1}\right) \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l} \left(\delta_{lp}\delta_{kq} - \delta_{lq}\delta_{kp}\right)\frac{\partial x_p}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_q}{\partial x_2} \\<br /> &amp;= \epsilon_{ijk} \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l} \epsilon_{lkm}\epsilon_{mpq} \frac{\partial x_p}{\partial s_1} \frac{\partial x_q}{\partial x_2} \\<br /> &amp;= -\epsilon_{ijk} \epsilon_{klm} \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l} n_m \\<br /> &amp;= \left(\delta_{im}\delta_{jl} - \delta_{il}\delta_{jm}\right) \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_l} n_m\\<br /> &amp;= n_i\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_j} - n_j \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_i}.<br /> \end{split} Hence <br /> \left(\frac{\partial}{\partial t} (\mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{n}) \right)_s = \left(\frac{\partial \mathbf{F}}{\partial t}\right)_{\mathbf{x}} \cdot \mathbf{n} + \mathbf{n} \cdot \left(((\mathbf{u} \cdot \nabla)\mathbf{F}) +<br /> \mathbf{F} (\nabla \cdot \mathbf{u}) - (\mathbf{F} \cdot \nabla)\mathbf{u}\right). I think the last three terms can be rearranged into -\mathbf{n} \cdot (\nabla \times(\mathbf{u} \times \mathbf{F})) on the assumption that \nabla \cdot \mathbf{F} = 0.
Hi, this is exactly what I wanted, thank you.
 
  • #14
wrobel said:
yes by definition it will be the Lie derivative and all the formulas above are the special cases of this construction
So we need a change of variables. Will this be the streamlines? This will lead to the pullback. The vector which is involved in the Lie derivative will be the velocity vector(tangent to the streamlines) at t=0. This is the basic calculation right?
 

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