The physical meaning of expansion in cosmology

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Discussion Overview

The thread explores the physical meaning of expansion in cosmology, focusing on intuitive, non-technical understandings of the standard model. Participants discuss how distances between stationary observers, particularly in relation to the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB), can be conceptualized and measured, while avoiding mathematical jargon and objectification of space.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant emphasizes that space should not be objectified, suggesting that saying "space expands" may mislead some into thinking of space as a material substance, advocating instead for the phrase "distances increase in a regular pattern."
  • Another participant discusses General Relativity (GR) as the best current theory of geometry/gravity, noting its limitations and the ongoing development of quantum models that aim to address singularities.
  • There is a proposal for measuring distances through a chain of stationary observers, who synchronize their clocks and measure radar distances to establish a present-day physical distance.
  • One participant argues against the phrase "expansion of space," claiming it is technically incorrect and confusing, and requests clarification on what exactly is expanding.
  • Another participant reiterates the importance of avoiding objectification of space, emphasizing the need for careful language in discussions about cosmological expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the terminology used to describe cosmological expansion, particularly regarding the phrase "expansion of space." While some find it acceptable, others argue it is misleading. The discussion remains unresolved on this terminology issue.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of measuring distances in cosmology and the limitations of current theories, including the dependence on specific coordinate charts and the challenges posed by gravitational effects.

  • #31
Garth said:
The "space that expands" is that described by the FRW metric - yes it does require a smattering of GR and also the interpretation of the observation of Hubble red shift, marcus has clearly defined it and distinguished it from 'ordinary space'.

Garth

Perhaps one simplistic model, might be to think of a manifold (i.e. continuum) being stretched uniformly for a given stage of universe (i.e. for given value of Hubble parameter). Then concomitantly (i.e. for given value of Hubble parameter), one also has local depressions forming (i.e. indentations i.e. curvature), representing local gravitational aggregation.
 
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  • #32
Garth said:
Such as "cosmological space"??

Garth
Yes. This is well defined. Just 'space' --- so often used --- is much too vague for informed discussions.
 
  • #33
marcus said:
This post is admittedly vague---it is merely meant to convey my attitude about GR. Briefly, my attitude is don't live in a straight-jacket of Greek expectations about geometry.
I feel I should point out that even the Greeks were capable of imagining non-Euclidean phenomena; e.g. that a pair of lines, in defiance of the Parallel postulate, could be in a situation where the interior angles add up to less than 180°, but the lines merely tended towards each other indefinitely without crossing. And, of course, they had all those lively debates about our notions of space. :smile:
 

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