The point of the Euler-Lagrange equation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Euler-Lagrange equation in the context of deriving the geodesic equation for a sphere. Participants explore whether the Euler-Lagrange equation serves as a shortcut for integration and differentiation involving multiple variables, and they delve into the implications of using this equation in the context of geodesics and Riemannian metrics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the Euler-Lagrange equation is merely a shortcut to avoid integrating and differentiating with two variables.
  • Others argue that the Euler-Lagrange equation optimizes an entire path rather than just one variable, suggesting it has a broader application in finding geodesics.
  • A participant mentions the dependence of the Lagrangian on variables such as time and position, indicating a specific formulation for the geodesic problem.
  • It is proposed that geodesics are extremals of variations of the arc length function, with critical points indicating geodesics under certain conditions.
  • One participant suggests that deriving the differential equations for a geodesic from the Euler-Lagrange equations is a valuable exercise, noting the appearance of Christoffel symbols in the resulting equations.
  • Another participant points out that while the Euler-Lagrange equations show that every extremal is a geodesic, they do not imply that every geodesic is an extremal.
  • There is a suggestion that using the Euler-Lagrange equations may not always simplify the problem, indicating some uncertainty about their utility.
  • Participants discuss the simplification of the metric in polar coordinates and how this leads to identifying geodesics as great circles on the sphere.
  • Technical details regarding the covariant derivative and connection forms are presented, emphasizing the mathematical framework used to analyze geodesics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the utility and implications of the Euler-Lagrange equation in deriving geodesics, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on specific coordinate systems and the mathematical complexity involved in deriving geodesics from the Euler-Lagrange equations. The discussion also highlights unresolved aspects regarding the general applicability of the Euler-Lagrange approach.

NihalRi
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When trying to come up with the geodesic equation for a sphere I came across this equation. My question, is this equation just a short cut so we don't have to integrate and differentiate with two variables.
Here is the equation
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Anoym1_CMRu6UeyS26mZmQ6lUIyHNg6uGfJMEY7usCCTrg_NtRCSl2teErq6b-uRGuiqYOWYQD0pMi2GLwYg2HP9fvx3mqPbwLlPonE6blR6Rn2EUaEv5M2u2IR2SjbGCJDinw=w136-h47-nc
 
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NihalRi said:
When trying to come up with the geodesic equation for a sphere I came across this equation. My question, is this equation just a short cut so we don't have to integrate and differentiate with two variables.
Here is the equation
[PLAIN]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Anoym1_CMRu6UeyS26mZmQ6lUIyHNg6uGfJMEY7usCCTrg_NtRCSl2teErq6b-uRGuiqYOWYQD0pMi2GLwYg2HP9fvx3mqPbwLlPonE6blR6Rn2EUaEv5M2u2IR2SjbGCJDinw=w136-h47-nc[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what your integration and differentiation alternative looks like. The E-L equation optimises an entire path. Differentiating wrt one variable only optimises wrt that variable.
 
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I don't know what is precisely your question but if can be useful I want remember you the dependence by the following variables ##L=L(t,q(t),\dot{q}(t))##.
 
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NihalRi said:
When trying to come up with the geodesic equation for a sphere I came across this equation. My question, is this equation just a short cut so we don't have to integrate and differentiate with two variables.
Here is the equation
[PLAIN]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Anoym1_CMRu6UeyS26mZmQ6lUIyHNg6uGfJMEY7usCCTrg_NtRCSl2teErq6b-uRGuiqYOWYQD0pMi2GLwYg2HP9fvx3mqPbwLlPonE6blR6Rn2EUaEv5M2u2IR2SjbGCJDinw=w136-h47-nc[/QUOTE]

Yes. Geodesics are extremals of variations of the arc length function. So if you take a variation of smooth curves with fixed end-points and compute their arc lengths under the metric, solving for critical points tells you that you have a geodesic. This works for Riemannian metrics and although I don't know about Space-Time geometry, I think that timeline geodesics are extremals of proper time where the variation is through time like paths.

In (t,q) coordinates, ##<∂/∂t,∂/∂t> = E## ##<∂/∂t,∂/∂q> = F## and ##<∂/∂q,∂/∂q> = G. ##

The Lagrangian is then the function, ##L(t,q,q') = (E + Fq' + G(t,q)(q')^2)^{1/2}##

- If you parameterize the sphere as a surface in 3 space, then the condition for a geodesic is that its normal vector is perpendicular to the sphere. This is the same as saying the geodesic curvature is zero. Or if you have an equation for geodesic curvature in terms of the metric then solve for geodesic curvature equal zero.
 
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A good exercise - with some tedious algebra - is to derive the differential equations for a geodesic expressed in terms of the metric from the Euler-Lagrange equations. It should not be a surprise that this can be done since the Lagrangian is just the length of the tangent vector to the path and so is expressed in terms of the ##g_{ij}##'s. If one looks closely, one sees the Christoffel symbols appearing and then the equation has the usual form.

BTW: It is a theorem that one can also solve the variational problem without the horrid square root. Then the Lagrangian is called the "energy" in analogy with kinetic energy.

The Euler-Lagrange equations show that every extremal is a geodesic but not that every geodesic is an extremal.

BTW: It is not obvious to me that using the Euler Lagrange equations always makes things easier.
 
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If you choose polar coordinates on the sphere then the metric takes on a simple form.

It is ##<∂/∂u,∂/∂u> = 1## ##<∂/∂u,∂/∂v> =0## ##<∂/∂v,∂/∂v> = sin^2(u)##

Whenever the metric is of this general form, ##du^2 = 1## ##dudv = 0## and ##dv^2 = G(u)## where G is some positive function that depends only on ##u##, one immediately gets that the curves ,##v = ## constant, are geodesics. On the sphere these are great circles through the center of the coordinate system.

One can see this from the Euler-Lagrange equations without solving them in general. One can also see it from the covariant derivative. which is particularly easy to compute. One then uses the symmetry of the sphere to move these coordinates isometrically to any point and conclude that geodesics passing through any point are the radial lines ##v = ## a constant i.e. great circles.

- For the covariant derivative computation, choose the orthonormal frame, ##∂/∂u## and ##G^{-1/2}∂/∂v##.
The the dual frame is ##e_1 = du## ##e_2 = G^{1/2}dv## and ,therefore,the connection 1-form,##ω_{12}##, is ##ω_{12} =1/2 G^{-1/2}G_udv##. The rest of the connection matrix is ##ω_{11} = ω_{22} = 0## and ##ω_{21} = -ω_{12}## by skew symmetry.

So the covariant derivative, ##∇_{e_1}e_1 = ω_{12}(e_1)e_2 = 0##.
 
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