The Pugilistic Albert - Round 2

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Dr. Einstein's thought experiment in Section VIII of Relativity illustrates that events can be perceived as simultaneous or asynchronous based on the observer's frame of reference. A proposed experiment substitutes firecrackers for lightning strikes to explore this concept, suggesting that discrepancies between light and sound observations could validate Special Relativity (SR). The discussion emphasizes that sound travels within an inertial frame and is not subject to Lorentz transformations, while light operates independently of the observer's frame. Despite skepticism about the practical value of such experiments, the potential to measure a simultaneity discrepancy between light and sound is seen as an intriguing avenue for further exploration. Ultimately, the conversation reflects a desire to affirm and extend the understanding of SR rather than challenge it.
  • #31
turin said:
In the embankment frame, this hastening towards and away from the light signals is true, but this is not due to the unmediated nature of light. Sound from the strikes travels through the air outside the carriage at the speed of sound, isotropically in the embankment frame as well. So, the on-board observer is also hastening towards and away from those signals in the embankment frame. The embankment observer could further observe that the sound signals inside the train travel from the scortch marks anisotropically, since the air is moving in a particular direction at 0.5c. This is subject to the Lorentz transformations just as everything else.

You are correct, the anisotropy is not due strickly to the existence or non of a medium but the relative motion of the observer frame with the "frame" in which the speed of a propagating phenomena (e.g light and sound) is constant. I think the mistake the etherists and Einstein made back in the 19th and early 20th century is in assuming a stationary ether. If the ether is at rest with respect to the lab (i.e. moving at the same velocity as the lab through space) or if propagating phenomenon are source dependent (in the case of no ether), isotropy of propagating phenomenon inside different inertial labs would be obtained. E.g. sound waves propagating thru the air inside a "moving" train would be detected as isotropic (since the "ether" is at rest with respect to the train) while sound waves propagating through the atmosphere outside the train would be detected as anisotropic by the lab inside the "moving" train, since the "ether" is "moving" with respect to the train.

In the train frame, SR says that the on-board observer is not hastening towards or away from the light signals (fundamental postulate). And, since the air in the train is moving with the train, the on-board observer is neither hastening towards or away from the sound signals.

The part about sound is similar to my explanation. You can't be right about the light though. Again, reread chapter 9. The train is supposed to be one inertial frame since all the parts, including the observer, are at the same velocity, so how can shrinking the train prevent the light signals traveling from the rear to the observer in the middle and from the front to the same observer from arriving at different times, if the light flashes happened simultaneously inside the train frame and then traveled at a constant c relative to the vacuum? Even Einstein acknowledges this anisotropy, except he called it "the relativity of simultaneity".
 
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  • #32
turin said:
Aha! You have finally come right out and said it. This is not in accord with SR, but, if it makes you feel any better, that is exactly how I considered it when I first learned this stuff, and everyone with whom I have discussed SR in an introductory setting has had this same ill-conceived consideration. This is the crux of the misconception. This is also the reason why I have emphasized that SR posits an ontology, that ontology being the events themselves, not the reception thereof. I wonder if it will ever be possible to communicate this position of SR, saving the student from this difficulty. I have tried conveying this in several different ways, but they never seem to make the point clear. A stubborn cleaving to the Gallilean conception of space and time seems quite inevitable, and only after a somewhat painful abandonment can an appreciation of the Minkowski character be gained.

Length contraction and time dilation are part of the solution to the principle of relativity (in the restricted sense) playing nicely with the constant isotropy of c. Of course, as you obviously realize, this leads to problems exactly in the instance of simultaneity. The answer that every serious student seems to naturally conjure: length contraction must be anisotropic. Einstein's answer (if you read way into it): simultaneity is (ontologically) relative. Of course, at the same time, Einstein, being somewhat of a physicist, confounds the distinction between a theoretical ontology (which most certainly exists in SR as the events in space-time) and a physical ontology (of which the discipline of physics is absolutely devoid, always admitting mere physical epistimology in its results, and never extending itself to the philosophical bost of ontology).




I will superficially agree with you. I occasioned to read Relativity last night from the beginning through Chapter IX: "The Relativity of Simultaneity." I now quite understand your position. Were I to be trying to understand SR from these writings, I would be so completely confounded by not only his wandering style (I suppose this is to what you were referring with "peripatetic"), but also by the manner in which he attempts to elucidate the conceptual problems, the theoretical conflicts, and the solutions. With particular attention to Chapter VIII, the opening remarks present the reader with a problem:


The text goes on with a concourse between Einstein and some imaginary you for whom he takes the privelage of speaking. Finally, the two of you come to a tentative agreement on the mechanism for determining simultaneity. Unfortunately (and this is one of the many things that I believe he has underemphasized) Einstein still maintains some subtle residual disagreement:


In my opinion, this is quite obsesively picky. Even Einstein admits in the next few lines:


But, it is nevertheless the absolutely necessary removal of this final inevitable residue at the end of the chapter that presents the solution to your problem, I believe:


I do not believe that Einstein endows that last bit (that I have put in bold) with sufficient emphasis. This is a huge part of understanding the structure of relativity, and it presents you with an alternative to your thought experiment, an you would so allow. I suggest that you maintain your embankment with clocks, so nearly adjacent as to form a virtual continuum line of them, and that their tick markings form a virtual continuum to the limit of the practical purposes of this experiment. (Let us assume, further, that this stipulation is always possible to achieve in principle.) Then, have two clocks on the train (separated by as great a distance as is practical).

Make two further arrangements:

1) All clocks on the embankment are synchronized, and the two clocks in the train frame are synchronized. That is, they all simultaneously display the same tick mark in their corresponding frames.

2) Each embankment clock is set to stop at some common tick mark (so that they all stop simultaneously in the embankment frame) and, in so stopping, send a trigger pulse through some mechanism (the details of which are forfit in this thought experiment in the interest of clarity, and the only stipulation is that the transmission path of the triggering signal is negligible for the timescale of the experiment) to the point in the train directly above it that effects a clock at that point in the train (should there be one present) to also stop.

Now, let us imagine that this experiment has run its course, and we are to assess the outcome. The train comes to a halt at the station, we board it, and proceed on our long walk to examine the aft clock. We can do this by obvious means of simply walking to its location on the train and visually inspecting its face. It gives us some reading (frozen by the experiment and so allowing us to take our time, no pun intended) which we write down on our clip boards. Then, we proceed to examine the fore clock, which can be accomplished in the same manner. Upon examination of these two records, we find that the fore clock had stopped previously to the aft clock (in the thought experiment). Thus, without any intimate connection to a particular type of signal, we have (thought) experimentally demonstrated the relativity of simultaneity.




Absolutely. Space-time diagrams are absolutely indespensible, if for nought else than their pedigogical utility. I do not believe that SR can be properly communicated without somewhat of an appeal to geometry. And, in this special case (that is, this "special theory of relativity"), the geometry may delightfully be concretely associated with graphical representation. Perhaps this site may be a tremendous help to you:
http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/sr/sr.shtml
Read Chapter 9 again. The relativity of simultaneity he speaks of is the effect due to the propagation delay of light so it's really a misnomer. He begins his thought experiment by assuming event A + B (lightning flashes) happened simultaneously for both observers M and M' then demonstrates that because point M' is moving towards the signal reflected at point B and away from the signal from point A, the event (A+B) is recorded as non-simultaneous by M' but simultaneous by M. In other words, this chapter which was supposed to help resolve the incompatibility between the two postulates in SR, is entirely irrelevant. If anything, since he argues that two light signals emitted from the front and rear of a moving train at the same time to a photomultiplier in the middle of the train will be detected at different times, he actually proves in his gedanken experiment that SR's two postulates ( that light propagates through the vacuum independent of source at a constant c and that physics is the same inside all inertial frames) are contradictory.

Only the later chapters on time dilation and length contraction has anything to do with resolving the logical contradiction in SR. Einstein's strategy basically was to rescale the sizes of time and space coordinates in such a way that what should be c+v and c-v in relatively moving frames becomes c.
This strategy fails because regardless of how much you shrink a set of coordinates (or expand them), there will always be anisotropic effects of light inside different inertial frames since its speed is source independent.

When Einstein says then in Chapter 9 that his so called relativity of simultaneity removes the incompatibility between the two postulates in SR, what he actually did was changed his second postulate- that the principle of physics is the same in all inertial frames- to mean only that the value c is a constant when all inertial frames measured the path of the light using the coordinates of the vacuum, that is, by taking into account their own velocities through space. He basically removed the inconsistency between his two postulates by removing the second postulate and replacing it with its logical opposite (anisotropy, but called by Einstein "the relativity of simultaneity"). It becomes a big mess by chapter 10 though when he goes back to his first renditions of his two postulates by introducing the Lorentz Transformations, which was supposed to make physics the same inside different inertial frames by rescaling the sizes of the time and space coordinates.
 
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  • #33
Eyesaw,
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect (to say that I am). Of this I am very certain, for I have chosen my statements carefully. Firstly, I will point out my initiation of "SR says..." You are neglecting the postulate of invariant c, which is what separates SR from other forms of relativity to which Einstein's appeals in the antecedent text. I believe your primary blunder may be your assumption that SR has been concluded by the arguments only through Chapter IX. There is subsequent development of the theory.

I do NOT rely on Einstein's Relativity to understand SR. I know that sounds paradoxical, but if you try to understand SR from the Minkowski perspective, which Einstein did in order to develop GR, then you may realize that Relativity is only intended as an attempt to demonstrate Einstein's process of development. For instance, if you are really after SR, you should read Chapter 2 in The Meaning of Relativity (along with the corresponding appendices) rather than the first ? chapters of Relativity (which are full of rambling prose and very little math).

For your own sake, if you truly wish to learn and understand SR, find a supplementary text. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Relativity, but you could save yourself much time and effort by entertaining an alternative source that is more directed to exposing the theory instead of the process of development.
 
  • #34
turin said:
Eyesaw,
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect (to say that I am). Of this I am very certain, for I have chosen my statements carefully. Firstly, I will point out my initiation of "SR says..." You are neglecting the postulate of invariant c, which is what separates SR from other forms of relativity to which Einstein's appeals in the antecedent text. I believe your primary blunder may be your assumption that SR has been concluded by the arguments only through Chapter IX. There is subsequent development of the theory.

I do NOT rely on Einstein's Relativity to understand SR. I know that sounds paradoxical, but if you try to understand SR from the Minkowski perspective, which Einstein did in order to develop GR, then you may realize that Relativity is only intended as an attempt to demonstrate Einstein's process of development. For instance, if you are really after SR, you should read Chapter 2 in The Meaning of Relativity (along with the corresponding appendices) rather than the first ? chapters of Relativity (which are full of rambling prose and very little math).

For your own sake, if you truly wish to learn and understand SR, find a supplementary text. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Relativity, but you could save yourself much time and effort by entertaining an alternative source that is more directed to exposing the theory instead of the process of development.

Invariance of c. Ok, a rest frame determines the velocity of light to be c. Now, use Galilian transformation for a frame moving in the direction of the light, you get c-v. So, add v and you get c as invariant. The space the moving observer and the light emitted from the rest source gets mixed together in a Galilian Transformation, so you get c-v. Once the space the observer moved through is separated from the space the light moved through, i.e. adding v to (c-v), every inertial frame determines the speed of light as invariantly c. Where's the need for the Lorentz Transformation? SR confuses the summed path of the light and the inertial observer with actual changes in space-time for the observers.

To make matters even more confusing, SR has two opposite definitions for its second postulate, the principle of relativity. The first definition only requires that c be invariant in all inertial frames, this is easily achieved by assuming source independence, then filtering out the velocity of the observer with respect to the rest frame, in lieu of the dumb way (the Lorentz Transformation) proposed by SR. The second definition requires that every inertial lab obtains the same results for experiments, which can only happen if propagation phenomenon were source dependent; just take the example with sound- inside a jet airplane going at Mach 2, a sound source in the middle of the jet would be heard loudly in the rear of the jet but the front receiver would hear nothing, if the propagation speed of sound was source (actually in the case of sound, medium speed) independent.
 
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  • #35
Eyesaw said:
... a rest frame determines the velocity of light to be c. Now, use Galilian transformation for a frame moving in the direction of the light, you get c-v. So, add v and you get c as invariant. The space the moving observer and the light emitted from the rest source gets mixed together in a Galilian Transformation, so you get c-v. Once the space the observer moved through is separated from the space the light moved through, i.e. adding v to (c-v), every inertial frame determines the speed of light as invariantly c.
I think I'm missing some subtle point. Why are you adding v? In what way do the Galilean transformations call for this adjustment?




Eyesaw said:
To make matters even more confusing, SR has two opposite definitions for its ... principle of relativity. The first definition only requires that c be invariant in all inertial frames, ... The second definition requires that every inertial lab obtains the same results for experiments, which can only happen if propagation phenomenon were source dependent;
This is not correct. The invariance of c is a separate postulate from the principle of relativity. Together, these two postulates generate the (kinematical) special theory of relativity. If the speed of light were observed to be frame dependent in the same way as sound, then we would most likely still use the Galilean transformations.




Eyesaw said:
... this is easily achieved by assuming source independence, then filtering out the velocity of the observer with respect to the rest frame, in ... the Lorentz Transformation ...
But this is not at all a representation of thet Lorentz transformation. The velocity of the observer (wrt some frame) is very much a (nontrivial) part of the Lorentz transformation, and it cannot be inserted nor removed by a mere addition.




Eyesaw said:
The second definition requires that every inertial lab obtains the same results for experiments, ...
This is a gross misconception. The principle of relativity requires that the form of the physical laws is the same in every inertial frame. To require the absolute identity of the results of experiment would be absurd. The results can be transformed from frame to frame, but they are only identifiable in this sense.




Eyesaw said:
... just take the example with sound- inside a jet airplane going at Mach 2, a sound source in the middle of the jet would be heard loudly in the rear of the jet but the front receiver would hear nothing, if the propagation speed of sound was source (actually in the case of sound, medium speed) independent.
I am having trouble putting this example together. How would an observer explain the anisotropy of the sound? Would the observer postulate this as a fundamental law for sound. Would the observer be allowed the consideration of the fact that he/she is in a jet traveling at Mach 2 (wrt the atmosphere/suface of the earth)? Would the observer be allowed to conduct any other experiments?
 

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