- 8,700
- 4,780
The only problem is that you apply a faulty equation to the reasoning in my paper. The K/P Hamiltonians have no such problems.akhmeteli said:if the Dirac equation has problems, why is this the Born's rule's problem?
The only problem is that you apply a faulty equation to the reasoning in my paper. The K/P Hamiltonians have no such problems.akhmeteli said:if the Dirac equation has problems, why is this the Born's rule's problem?
I failed to understand how the example in K/P is relevant. Could you please explain?A. Neumaier said:The argumentation is completely contained in point 4 of Subsection 3.3 of my Part I. The Keister-Polyzou paper just contains dynamical relativistic examples. If you want a definite example, you may take the example of spinless quarks in Section 2.3 (p.26 in the copy cited in post #642). But the details do not matter.
The only relevant points for my argument are that, although the setting is Poincare-covariant,
As a result, the dynamics introduces (as claimed in Part I) after arbitrarily short times nonzero probabilities of finding an initially locally prepared particle (initial wave function with compact support), at almost any other point in the universe.
- the wave function at fixed time is a function of several spatial momenta, which after Fourier transform to the position representation becomes wave function that is a function of spatial positions,
- Born's rule makes claims about the probabilities of measuring,
- the Hamiltonian and the position operators have a nonlocal commutator.
Thus the position probability interpretation itself contradicts the principles of relativity!
I write all interpretations in lower case, except possibly in copy/paste mode. But MWI, TI. In the 7 basic [URL='https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-7-basic-rules-of-quantum-mechanics/']Rules of Quantum Mechanics[/URL], I kept the convention from the earlier draft by tom.stoer...atyy said:Do you write "Many-Worlds Interpretation" or "many-worlds interpretation"?
Why did you choose "thermal interpretation" instead of "Thermal Interpretation"?
eloheim said:I can’t understand how the TI is supposed to solve the problems of other interpretations, beyond merely decreeing, “It’s resolved. Don’t worry about it.”
No interpretation explains this, except by voicing the mantra ''nonlocality''. How Nature manages to realize these nonlocal coincidences is a secret of its creator. Bell's analysis just shows that one needs explicitly nonlocal beables if one wants to avoid all sorts of other weird assumptions. Nonlocal beables depends on simultaneous values at very far away points, and once one acknowledges that these influence local beables, nonlocal correlations between the latter are explained (in some sense).eloheim said:Essentially my question is, “how are these coincidences explained by the TI?”
How does this pointing provide an explanation? It only says that certain dynamical calculations leads to the result, but does not explain the result, unless calculation is deemed explanation. (But the same calculations then work for the TI.)eloheim said:Other interpretations point to the entangled particles, or a pilot wave
The problem you posed in your post is not the measurement problem but the nonlocality puzzle.eloheim said:the TI is billed as solving the measurement problem
You are being sarcastic ,right? You don't actually believe what you said as a physicist, do you?A. Neumaier said:How Nature manages to realize these nonlocal coincidences is a secret of its creator.
Physicists lifted many secrets of Nature but not (yet?) this one.ftr said:You are being sarcastic ,right? You don't actually believe what you said as a physicist, do you?![]()
You are absolutely right about this; my apologies for a poor choice of words. I was trying to suggest that the TI has the same issues with how it treats (or rather doesn't treat) such foundational problems in general. However, I didn't defend any other criticisms in my post (and I'm not sure that I could) so please disregard my mention of the measurement problem if you will.A. Neumaier said:The problem you posed in your post is not the measurement problem but the nonlocality puzzle.
The measurement problem is the problem of why there are unique and discrete outcomes for single quantum systems although the wave function produces only superpositions of (measurement,detector state) pairs. This problem is solved by the TI; see Subsection 5.1 of Part III and Section 3 of Part IV.
The difference is that, according to most interpretations, the singlet state (i.e. the two entangled particles) is a nonlocal beable, so when you do something to one of the particles (like measure spin) the other is affected accordingly. This, combined with the local detector settings on each end of the experiment, is enough to produce the desired QM statistics. In this case the detectors would be entangled only after interacting with the particles, and no nonlocal correlations at all between the detectors themselves are necessary to explain the phenomenon. Conversely, the TI wants to say that the correlations are in the detectors from the beginning, and are only acting on noise in the particle beam.A. Neumaier said:How does this pointing provide an explanation? It only says that certain dynamical calculations leads to the result, but does not explain the result, unless calculation is deemed explanation. (But the same calculations then work for the TI.)
No. The correlations are caused by the interaction - without interaction there is of course no measurement result. The beam produces a bilocal field characterized (among others) by local and bilocal beables, namely the q-expectations of ##A(x)##, ##B(y)##, ##A(x)B(y)## and ##B(y)A(x)## at spacetime positions ##x## and ##y##. When reaching the detectors at ##x## and ##y## (including the prepared controls manipulated by Alice and Bob, respectively), these interact according to the deterministic, covariant dynamics of the system beam+detector and result in correlated local measurement results at ##x## and ##y##, depending on these controls.eloheim said:Conversely, the TI wants to say that the correlations are in the detectors from the beginning, and are only acting on noise in the particle beam.
eloheim said:according to most interpretations, the singlet state (i.e. the two entangled particles) is a nonlocal beable, so when you do something to one of the particles (like measure spin) the other is affected accordingly. This, combined with the local detector settings on each end of the experiment, is enough to produce the desired QM statistics. In this case the detectors would be entangled only after interacting with the particles, and no nonlocal correlations at all between the detectors themselves are necessary to explain the phenomenon.
The reference to not just QM but Nature itself being nonlocal is an implication that QM is - as the realists claim - an incomplete theory which can be completed by creating the correct mathematization of the concept of nonlocality. This means inventing or identifying the branch of mathematics for this concept, and then applying that branch of mathematics to QM such that QM itself may be reformulated in this new mathematical language which naturally captures and explicitizes the nonlocality in a mathematically useful form, in the hope that this will naturally lead to a completion of QM.A. Neumaier said:No interpretation explains this, except by voicing the mantra ''nonlocality''. How Nature manages to realize these nonlocal coincidences is a secret of its creator.
Well, my claim is that the thermal interpretation does just this!Auto-Didact said:such that QM itself may be reformulated in this new mathematical language which naturally captures and explicitizes the nonlocality in a mathematically useful form, in the hope that this will naturally lead to a completion of QM.
I'm aware that you think that and I applaud your effort. I haven't had enough time to chew on the TI yet, haven't read the three papers yet in depth.A. Neumaier said:Well, my claim is that the thermal interpretation does just this!
What you state here makes the TI a form of determinism (which it is). Superdeterminism, I was told, is a more specific label that does not apply to the TI.Auto-Didact said:Having read a significant portion of this thread though, it feels to me that the TI is a form of superdeterminism, wherein even what seems to be truly random (i.e. measurement outcomes as dictated by the Born rule) is actually completely a deterministic consequence of the initial condition of the universe, in conjunction with a novel 'thermalization' scheme for generating quasiprobabilities.
It isn't clear to me from that post alone that the TI actually is or is not superdeterministic, nor whether it conceptually adheres to any other form of predeterminism which has yet to be mathematicized. So far, the TI still seems to be more deterministic than other physical theories are; that isn't a good thing.A. Neumaier said:What you state here makes the TI a form of determinism (which it is). Superdeterminism, I was told, is a more specific label that does not apply to the TI.
Auto-Didact said:The concept of predeterminism consists of a much larger and wider class of theories and explanations rather than just merely what is called superdeterminism; if the TI actually conforms to any other implementation of predeterminism apart from superdeterminism then this would render the point made above through the thought experiment completely obsolete.
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the TI says that in such a bell test there is an electromagnetic beam of expectation value = 0. The detectors are basically in a metastable state where tiny random perturbations from the environment will break the symmetry and knock the detector into one of the two possible measurement results (pseudo)randomly. It seems to me that if what the TI calls measurement errors are part of the beam in the first place, then how can you really say the beables are EVs and not regular eigenstates?A. Neumaier said:No. The correlations are caused by the interaction - without interaction there is of course no measurement result. The beam produces a bilocal field characterized (among others) by local and bilocal beables, namely the q-expectations of ##A(x)##, ##B(y)##, ##A(x)B(y)## and ##B(y)A(x)## at spacetime positions ##x## and ##y##. When reaching the detectors at ##x## and ##y## (including the prepared controls manipulated by Alice and Bob, respectively), these interact according to the deterministic, covariant dynamics of the system beam+detector and result in correlated local measurement results at ##x## and ##y##, depending on these controls.
Thus the explanation is similar to that that you accepted as explanatory in the other interpretations:
This is where I was going with my line of questioning but I wasn't sure and didn't want to presume anything. I understood the TI to coordinate the microstates of the detectors on each side of a bell-type experiment through either special conditions in the initial state of the universe (which I don't think most here would consider to be a satisfactory solution for this type of interpretation), or maybe through some kind of acausal or 4D constraints on the total evolution of the universe (in other words the universe "sniffs out" an acceptable path between the initial and final states, and "chooses" one that respects its physical laws).Auto-Didact said:Having read a significant portion of this thread though, it feels to me that the TI is a form of superdeterminism, wherein even what seems to be truly random (i.e. measurement outcomes as dictated by the Born rule) is actually completely a deterministic consequence of the initial condition of the universe, in conjunction with a novel 'thermalization' scheme for generating quasiprobabilities.
They are not part of the beam (which is in a stable state as long as it meets no obstacle) but results of the interaction beam+detector, which is in an unstable state and hence moves into a random one among the stable directions. The randomness appears precisely when the instability begins, and the measurement error is due to the fact that an instability magnifies tiny random fluctuations to much larger motions. Thus the errors an effect of the measurement process, and not a property of the beam.eloheim said:It seems to me that if what the TI calls measurement errors are part of the beam in the first place
Through neither of these. The nonlocal dynamics depends on the local and bilocal input just prior to the beginning of the interaction, and because it is unstable it forces the combined state (and in particular the pointer q-expectation measured) into one of a few preferred pathways, just like a particle at a saddle of a 2D potential moves into one of the few valleys accessible from the saddle.eloheim said:the TI to coordinate the microstates of the detectors on each side of a bell-type experiment through [...]
See the preceding post #680. What is here more determinstic than in classical mechanics?Auto-Didact said:So far, the TI still seems to be more deterministic than other physical theories are;
Predeterminism is a concept much broader than QT, or even physical theory i.e. physics as a whole for that matter. Superdeterminism in the QT literature is one specific mathematical implementation of the far broader concept of predeterminism. I'm not aware of any other specific mathematical implementations that are popular or frequently referenced in modern physics literature.charters said:I've never heard of an interpretation of QM with some alternative "predeterministic" HVs, which would tell a different story than the two I sketched above. Can you give me a concrete example of an interpretation of QM with "predeterministic but not superdeterministic" HVs?
Classical mechanics doesn't depend on carefully tuned initial conditions of the universe neither does classical mechanics determine the initial condition of the universe. As you know - and I would argue probably understand better than most - this is because classical analytical mechanics is essentially purely an applied mathematical model which can be reduced to a set of reversible differential equations.A. Neumaier said:See the preceding post #682. What is here more determinstic than in classical mechanics?
This sounds extremely similar to Penrose's proposal; in fact you merely need to replace "interaction beam+detector" with "superposed gravitational fields of the interacting system" and the two proposals are indistinguishable.A. Neumaier said:They are not part of the beam (which is in a stable state as long as it meets no obstacle) but results of the interaction beam+detector, which is in an unstable state and hence moves into a random one among the stable directions. The randomness appears precisely when the instability begins, and the measurement error is due to the fact that an instability magnifies tiny random fluctuations to much larger motions. Thus the errors an effect of the measurement process, and not a property of the beam.
The same holds for quantum mechanics in the TI. If things are sufficiently well isolated one can consider small systems and replace everything else as in classical mechanics by a standard (but quantum) heat bath, as always done in statistical mechanics. One just needs something that carries matter or energy a macroscopic distance away from where the interaction happens, to get the required dissipation.Auto-Didact said:Classical mechanics doesn't depend on carefully tuned initial conditions of the universe neither does classical mechanics determine the initial condition of the universe.
There is, namely the Ehrenfest dynamics for q-expectations. See Section 2.1 of Part II.Auto-Didact said:if there is an underlying dynamical model
Maybe you should wait with insinuating remarks until you read it.Auto-Didact said:As I said I haven't read the papers yet, I plan to do that the coming week.
Yes, there is some similarity. ButAuto-Didact said:This sounds extremely similar to Penrose's proposal; in fact you merely need to replace "interaction beam+detector" with "superposed gravitational fields of the interacting system" and the two proposals are indistinguishable.
Auto-Didact said:I'm not aware of any other specific mathematical implementations that are popular or frequently referenced in modern physics literature.
Note however that this in no way implies that superdeterminism is the sole possible unique implementation of predeterminism, nor does it imply that any other qualitatively different - i.e. based in different forms of mathematics - implementations of predeterminism can not exist; to paraphrase Feynman, to presume the opposite would be wagging the dog by the tail.
A. Neumaier said:The same holds for quantum mechanics in the TI. If things are sufficiently well isolated one can consider small systems and replace everything else as in classical mechanics by a standard (but quantum) heat bath, as always done in statistical mechanics.
The above two statements (seem to) contradict each other: if the TI is capable of completely being reduced to - not merely highly accurately be approximated by - a reversible DE or any other similar pure object/function, then it cannot also simultaneously dynamically determine the initial conditions of the universe: orthodox QM is essentially incapable of the latter.A. Neumaier said:There is, the Ehrenfest dynamics for q-expectations. See Section 2.1 of Part II.
Maybe, but I don't want to miss out on all the fun going on here before hermetically focusing on that task.A. Neumaier said:Maybe you should wait with insinuating remarks until you read it.
1. Yes, except that 1a) gravitational interactions cannot be shielded and 1b) all detection events are always above the one graviton level, thereby automatically making the 'EM sufficiency argument' itself insufficient as a definitive argument.A. Neumaier said:Yes, there is some similarity. But
- the electromagnetic field is fully sufficient to achieve that;
- Penrose didn't propose the reality of q-expectations.
I'm not proposing anything or admitting anything of the sort, I'm saying that mathematically speaking the issue is genuinely open; simply pretending that it isn't, merely because it hasn't yet is de facto a hypothesis not belonging to the methodology of fundamental physics, but instead belonging to a general strategic scientific methodology focusing more on getting simple shortterm results instead of more difficult longterm ones (i.e. fundamental matters of principle).charters said:If you admit you can't propose a concrete implementation of "predeterminism" distinct from the types of HV models I outlined, then what is the merit of this claim? The burden is on you to affirmatively establish the existence of this alternative before anyone needs to worry about it. Otherwise, you are just saying "well, maybe there's something nobody has ever thought of" which is just a generic exception to a huge class of claims across all topics.
Auto-Didact said:Classical mechanics doesn't depend on carefully tuned initial conditions of the universe neither does classical mechanics determine the initial condition of the universe.
A. Neumaier said:The same holds for quantum mechanics in the TI.
This is a misunderstanding: I never claimed that; see the quotes that I just repeated. The initial conditions are arbitrary, as in each dynamical system.Auto-Didact said:it cannot also simultaneously dynamically determine the initial conditions of the universe
Understood, which means that the answer toA. Neumaier said:This is a misunderstanding: I never claimed that; see the quotes that I just repeated. The initial conditions are arbitrary, as in each dynamical system.
is actually definitively negative, i.e. the IC of the universe aren't determined by Ehrenfest dynamics in the TI; alas, I got my hopes up due to post #683.Auto-Didact said:It isn't clear to me whether or not the TI depends on either of those factors (fine tuned initial conditions or determining the initial conditions); it actually isn't necessarily problematic if there is an underlying dynamical model
Auto-Didact said:I don't want to miss out on all the fun going on here before hermetically focusing on that task.
akhmeteli said:I failed to understand how the example in K/P is relevant. Could you please explain?
I understand items 1 and 2 in your quoted post. I don't understand item 3 as I don't know what Hamiltonian you have in mind. (Neither do I understand how you get your conclusion "
the dynamics introduces ... after arbitrarily short times nonzero probabilities of finding an initially locally prepared particle", but maybe this will be clearer after you explain item 3)
Could you please explain? Thank you.