- #31
amp
Russ,
How so? I'm aware that there are a few in control of the current world pathos.
How so? I'm aware that there are a few in control of the current world pathos.
News The U.S. is no angel or don't believe the hype.
- Thread starter amp
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The discussion centers on the perception of U.S. foreign policy and the portrayal of American actions in global conflicts. Participants express concern over U.S. propaganda and the media's role in shaping public opinion, arguing that many Americans are influenced by government narratives that downplay or ignore U.S. atrocities abroad. Various links are shared to highlight instances of alleged U.S. misconduct, with some participants questioning the credibility of these sources and the motivations behind them. The conversation also touches on the effectiveness of media bias, with some asserting that while U.S. media may favor American perspectives, it does not constitute propaganda in the same way as state-controlled media in other countries. The debate includes references to historical events and the complexities of public opinion, particularly regarding military interventions. Overall, the dialogue reveals a deep skepticism about the narratives presented by both the U.S. government and foreign media, emphasizing the need for critical examination of all information sources.
- #32
kyleb
well actually there is quite a few and they all have their own little plans, but they also tend go along with the flow when it suits their needs. its basically the same thing that has been going on for the majority of recorded history; granted they do tend to fudge the records when they think that is the best plan. 
- #33
kat
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I'm not a chomsky hater amp, I'm a chomsky worshipper disdainer
. I'm also with Brad Delong on this one:
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/archives/000155.html "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." "Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line." And now, "Never get involved in an argument over Noam Chomsky."
The Chomsky defenders--and there seem to be a surprisingly large number of them--seem to form a kind of cult. Arguing with them seems to be a lot like trying to teach Plato's Republic to a pig: it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig.
Of course he then goes on and argues about Chomsky...
I don't neccesarily have a problem with everything Chomsky says, although I believe he does mislead and conveniently leaves out those facts that go against his premises. People often treat him as a historian, when he's not..he's better treated as an activist with a focus that despite what he claims does come off as very "anti-american" and "anti-semetic" TO ME.
What do we know of Arabic, French, German, and Russia's ulterior motives? capabilities? influences? I prefer to have a more balanced world view..
I have in mind far more than just what Bush might mean for a Dole voter. I keep in mind the record of France in Africa, the record of Russia, the record of China, the hypothetical results of what they propose, what the USA, UK and all the other idiotic countries are proposing and implementing, each in different degrees and the hypothetical results of their actions, and very very much the record of Saddam and the hypothesis of what will mean for Iraqis and the middle east if Saddam remains, and the total revelation of all hypothesis together with past records and habits of all participants.
Human rights present in times of open conflict terrible moral dilemnas, of categories of rights, of working with hypothesis that might be accurate or not and the results incide gravely on humans. They are not solved by anti-americanism as an only option.
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- #34
russ_watters
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A real propaganda campaign (not to mention control of a government) requires coordination and tight centralized control. If the corporations controlled the government, it would require that ALL of the major corporations work together. Thats preposterous (I'm wearing out the word "absurd"). A major news network can't even wield the centralized control required for a propaganda campaign or government control(with the exception of CNN, which has only one station), much less all the networks (and other corporations) doing it together. Similar, the US government in general is too decentralized and the first amendment too powerful for the government to run an effective propaganda campaign.
Corporate control of the government of the US is limited to contributions and lobbying. Certainly this is more control than they should have, but its only influence on their little area of interest (hence the term "special interest group"). Microsoft for example, doesn't give a rats ass about funding for fixing potholes in Philadelphia.
- #35
kyleb
well if it is so tight that it is clearly visable that is nothing but a real inefective propaganda campaign. however, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,889818,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40057-2003Mar27.html
http://www.fair.org/international/iraq.html
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- #36
russ_watters
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Well if you prefer to see it that way, ok. I tend to think the government knows that a real propaganda campaign would be futile and doesn't try it.
- #37
kyleb
so your definition of "real" propaganda campaigns the "virtual" ones are all good eh? i mean this is the "virtual age" and all. 
- #38
amp
Thanks Kyleb,
This one helps make my point:http://www.fair.org/activism/iraq-sources-networks.html
Russ, the networks don't have to be in lock step to achieve the same goals of dis/misinformation that would constitute propaganda. I was polled recently (telephone), first they wanted to know if I was a republican, then a conservative, then Bush supporter a 'no' to each question elicited a swift thank you and dial tone- I wonder who's views they wanted to poll?[?] And what the results of the poll would have shown.(DUH)
This one helps make my point:http://www.fair.org/activism/iraq-sources-networks.html
Russ, the networks don't have to be in lock step to achieve the same goals of dis/misinformation that would constitute propaganda. I was polled recently (telephone), first they wanted to know if I was a republican, then a conservative, then Bush supporter a 'no' to each question elicited a swift thank you and dial tone- I wonder who's views they wanted to poll?[?]
And what the results of the poll would have shown.(DUH)
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- #39
BoulderHead
What constitutes propaganda anyway, and would this dictionary.com definition suffice;
1) The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
So when Bush repeatedly says; America is good, America is just, etc. Do you;
A) Consider it propaganda and/or brainwashing?
B) Consider it the gospel truth?
1) The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
So when Bush repeatedly says; America is good, America is just, etc. Do you;
A) Consider it propaganda and/or brainwashing?
B) Consider it the gospel truth?
- #40
amp
No not that,
but I'm sure you know of other less savory quips. BTW, for those concerned not supporting the asinine policies of past and current administrations isn't un-american or un-patriotic, its a right (or was before the Patriot act).Oh, yeah that's an example Boulderhead - what was said and what it really does. (if you don't understand pick up any Mad magazine and read (Dave Berg I think)'What they say ,What they really mean'.
but I'm sure you know of other less savory quips. BTW, for those concerned not supporting the asinine policies of past and current administrations isn't un-american or un-patriotic, its a right (or was before the Patriot act).Oh, yeah that's an example Boulderhead - what was said and what it really does. (if you don't understand pick up any Mad magazine and read (Dave Berg I think)'What they say ,What they really mean'.
- #41
russ_watters
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Boulder, you forgot C: his personal opinion.
Definitions are important here: Just because most of what we see on US media is pro-US doesn't make it propaganda. Along those lines, amp, to me that site does nothing to strenghten your claim. I never claimed the US media wasn't biased in favor of the US (shouldn't that be obvious?). EVERY country's media is biased in favor of that country. That is *NOT* propaganda. Propaganda requires an active DIS-information campaign and suppression of differing points of view. NEITHER exist in the US.
Also, amp, you don't know who was asking you those questions or why. You can't immediately assume it was a bad poll. It could simply have been the republican party seeking the opinion of republicans (for example).
It really seems like the opinions you guys hold are so weak that you see any differing opinion to be based on propaganda. Thats simply rediculous. MY opinion does NOT depend on the suppression of differing points of view and uncomfortable facts. You guys can't handle the fact that the vast majority of Americans really *DO* support this war (though of course that's largely a byproduct of latent patriotism rising up).
Definitions are important here: Just because most of what we see on US media is pro-US doesn't make it propaganda. Along those lines, amp, to me that site does nothing to strenghten your claim. I never claimed the US media wasn't biased in favor of the US (shouldn't that be obvious?). EVERY country's media is biased in favor of that country. That is *NOT* propaganda. Propaganda requires an active DIS-information campaign and suppression of differing points of view. NEITHER exist in the US.
Also, amp, you don't know who was asking you those questions or why. You can't immediately assume it was a bad poll. It could simply have been the republican party seeking the opinion of republicans (for example).
It really seems like the opinions you guys hold are so weak that you see any differing opinion to be based on propaganda. Thats simply rediculous. MY opinion does NOT depend on the suppression of differing points of view and uncomfortable facts. You guys can't handle the fact that the vast majority of Americans really *DO* support this war (though of course that's largely a byproduct of latent patriotism rising up).
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- #42
amp
Certainly Russ,
but(a big but) if( a big if) they purport that this is the view of the 'majority' of americans polled without explicitly stating the polling sample is exclusively consertative republicans... what do you think the majority of the viewing public would assume and what percentage do you think will hop on the bandwagon since that's what they believe most people think? Hmmm, I sure you will find fault with this site but peep it anyway, [URL]http://www.bushwatch.net/bushlies.htm[/URL]
an excerpt:"As always, the purpose of propaganda is to distract the public from the facts , which means denying that oil has anything to do with our intentions in Iraq. The administration has hammered away at this, with designated dove Colin Powell declaiming, "The oil of Iraq belongs to the people of Iraq..."
Also, check this one out:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html
infamous members too.
but(a big but) if( a big if) they purport that this is the view of the 'majority' of americans polled without explicitly stating the polling sample is exclusively consertative republicans... what do you think the majority of the viewing public would assume and what percentage do you think will hop on the bandwagon since that's what they believe most people think? Hmmm, I sure you will find fault with this site but peep it anyway, [URL]http://www.bushwatch.net/bushlies.htm[/URL]
an excerpt:"As always, the purpose of propaganda is to distract the public from the facts , which means denying that oil has anything to do with our intentions in Iraq. The administration has hammered away at this, with designated dove Colin Powell declaiming, "The oil of Iraq belongs to the people of Iraq..."
Also, check this one out:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html
infamous members too.
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- #43
russ_watters
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Wow, amp, that's a MASSIVE assumption you are making based on exactly ZERO information.
I don't remember if it was this thread or not, but we GAVE you examples of what a "good" poll looks like. Clearly a good poll must list the question and the choice of answers as well as who was asked the question. If you read the polls on the public's stance on the war, they meet these criteria. The vast majority of americans (~70%) DO support the war. http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/0330a.htm
- #44
BoulderHead
Russ,
Option C comes from contemplation of option A.
Option C comes from contemplation of option A.
- #45
iansmith
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I agree with you russ . Media are biass, and I saw the war coverage from the French, the french Canadians, Canadian and the US. Informations about the war is view in a different way.
I don't think the US media are doing propagandha but we should question the freedom of speech. Check this link out: http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthemedia/story/0,12823,926553,00.html
If you think the US media are a pro-wr propagandha, then the french media are doing anti-war/american propagandha.
- #46
amp
Russ, a question...
does the poll at the site you gave say weather or not the sample was taken from a)a typical person off the street b)Conservative c)Republican d)Democrat e)Independent f)Bush sympathizer g)Bush opposer.
the way the poll looks its as if they polled were (b),(c),(f) another thing about the poll is this disclaimer at the end-In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.
does the poll at the site you gave say weather or not the sample was taken from a)a typical person off the street b)Conservative c)Republican d)Democrat e)Independent f)Bush sympathizer g)Bush opposer.
the way the poll looks its as if they polled were (b),(c),(f) another thing about the poll is this disclaimer at the end-In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.