The van der Waals Equation: What is the exact meaning of 'volume of gas'?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kaushik
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Gas Van der waals
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of the term "volume of gas" in the context of the van der Waals equation, particularly how it relates to the behavior of real gases at high pressure compared to ideal gases. Participants explore the implications of molecular volume on measured and calculated volumes.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the measured volume of a gas at high pressure is higher than the calculated volume, leading to confusion about the definition of "volume" as it pertains to gas behavior.
  • Another participant points out that the van der Waals equation includes a term that accounts for the volume occupied by gas molecules, indicating that the measured volume reflects this occupied volume.
  • There is a clarification that the ideal gas equation assumes "free volume," while the occupied volume in the van der Waals equation is larger due to the volume occupied by molecules.
  • Questions arise about the definition of "free volume," with some participants discussing it as the volume of the container minus the volume occupied by the molecules.
  • One participant emphasizes that the measured volume includes the volume of the molecules themselves, countering the idea that it should be less than the calculated volume.
  • Another participant notes that the concept of "no go" volume is not a fixed area but rather an average fraction of the container volume that is unavailable due to the presence of other molecules.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of "volume" in the context of the van der Waals equation, with some agreeing on the inclusion of molecular volume in measured volume while others maintain a different perspective. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these definitions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of defining "free volume" and its dependence on the context of gas behavior, particularly under varying pressure conditions. There are unresolved aspects regarding the relationship between measured and calculated volumes in real gases.

Kaushik
Messages
282
Reaction score
17
It is said that, for real gases at high pressure, the measured volume is higher than the calculated volume.

My perception of the volume of the gas, as of now, is the following: The free space available for the gas to move. It excludes the volume of the molecules. So on increasing the pressure, the volume of the molecules becomes significant. So the measured volume should be less than the calculated volume. (Calculated volume is the volume obtained from the ideal gas equation).

I reckon that the confusion of mine arose due to the misconception of "volume". Please correct me :)
 
Chemistry news on Phys.org
If you simply look at the vdW equation you can see there is a factor ##V - nb##. This means V is the occupied volume including the volume of the molecules themselves.

Your perception seems right to me. The conclusion not: ideal gas equation has 'free volume'; occupied (= measured) volume is larger by ##nb## .

A good reference is PW Atkins: Physical chemistry. He has a whole chapter on this.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Kaushik
BvU said:
If you simply look at the vdW equation you can see there is a factor ##V - nb##. This means V is the occupied volume including the volume of the molecules themselves.

Your perception seems right to me. The conclusion not: ideal gas equation has 'free volume'; occupied (= measured) volume is larger by ##nb## .

A good reference is PW Atkins: Physical chemistry. He has a whole chapter on this.
What do you mean by 'free volume'? Do you mean the volume of the container - the volume of molecules?
 
BvU said:
A good reference is PW Atkins: Physical chemistry. He has a whole chapter on this.
It says that instead of moving in volume V, it is restricted to move in V-nb. So the measured volume is V - nb?
 
No: you measure the volume including the volume of the molecules. They are in there !
 
Kaushik said:
What do you mean by 'free volume'? Do you mean the volume of the container - the volume of molecules?
Correct: the volume available for the molecules to move around in is the container volume minus the volume occupied by the molecules themselves. Of course the 'no go' volume is not a fixed (in time) 3D area, but an average fraction of the container volume where they can't go because of other molecules being there.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
4K
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
14
Views
4K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
4K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K