The world is unfair and all so why have an offspring?

[tgt]

for a bunch of smart people you sure don't infer well. obviously OP wasn't talking about fairness literally. i think the question was : "world sucks why have kids". and my answer would be why indeed.

Considering that the term fair is based off a model created by limited human logic, fairness doesn't exist in reality. The world is neither fair nor unfair, it just is. You procreate or do anything because you want to, period.

By the term 'fairness', I was thinking of the authorities of the societies on earth, especially in the developed countries and realized that none act honestly and justfully for the people. That makes me feel sad because if the high ranks are corrupt, what hope is there for the rest of us? That is not to say the rest of us are all honest. We all are 'bad'. There is nothing we can do about it but what we can do is to stop this evil on Earth and that is by not producing more evil beings like ourselves. However, that is extremely difficult to do because we are programmed to produce more evil beings (another sign of us being evil?). It is unstoppable and inescapable for the ones who choose to live with all of it, that is for the ones who choose not to commit suicide which is most of us, unfortuntely.

 

[lisab]

But when they become adults they'll realize what you've (the parents) got them into. A deep, inescapable hole (unless if you kill yourself).

Not necessarily...I can honestly say I've never felt those feelings toward my parents. In fact, I'm quite happy to be alive !

 

[Moonbear]

But when they become adults they'll realize what you've (the parents) got them into. A deep, inescapable hole (unless if you kill yourself).

I really hope this is meant to be humorous and not serious. As I mentioned above, there are different definitions of fairness that people use. From my perspective, while life isn't always fair, I think most of the time it is. The person who works hardest usually gets the better education, the better job, the better pay, the promotion, etc. The person who is very lazy usually ends up lacking an education, out of work, living on barely any income. That all seems pretty fair. There are sometimes exceptions, and especially when other people try to redefine fairness as everyone should get the same rewards regardless of effort or skill. But overall, those things tend to balance out. It's the unexpected events and challenges that need to be overcome that make life fun. I really don't see any reason why someone should hesitate to have children. And, actually, the worse conditions get, the more incentive there is to have MORE children...better chances that one or two will survive to carry on your genes. That people have the luxury now to have only one or two children or to choose to have none because they can be relatively confident that putting their efforts into helping raise nieces and nephews will pay off for continuing to pass on genes from their family suggests things are pretty good.

 

[Borek]

Not necessarily...I can honestly say I've never felt those feelings toward my parents. In fact, I'm quite happy to be alive !

Interesting observation. Looking around I feel sorry for Junior (looks like his generation will be in much deeper sh** we are) but just as lisab I have never thought that my parents are responsible for the fact I am here and I can be disgusted by what I see.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

In my opinion, this rather weak philosophical reasoning against having children crumbles in the face of three and half billion years of evolution arguing in favor.

I remember in kindergarten that we had air raid drills in which we went to the basement and stood along the corridor with our heads cradled in our arms leaning against the wall. Our teacher said it was important to cover our heads in case of bombs. In my imagination, cannon balls were crashing in, leaving circular holes in the walls like in cartoons, and konking recalcitrant children on their noggins if they didn't cover them as instructed.

 

[tgt]

I really hope this is meant to be humorous and not serious. As I mentioned above, there are different definitions of fairness that people use. From my perspective, while life isn't always fair, I think most of the time it is. The person who works hardest usually gets the better education, the better job, the better pay, the promotion, etc. The person who is very lazy usually ends up lacking an education, out of work, living on barely any income. That all seems pretty fair. There are sometimes exceptions, and especially when other people try to redefine fairness as everyone should get the same rewards regardless of effort or skill. But overall, those things tend to balance out. It's the unexpected events and challenges that need to be overcome that make life fun. I really don't see any reason why someone should hesitate to have children. And, actually, the worse conditions get, the more incentive there is to have MORE children...better chances that one or two will survive to carry on your genes. That people have the luxury now to have only one or two children or to choose to have none because they can be relatively confident that putting their efforts into helping raise nieces and nephews will pay off for continuing to pass on genes from their family suggests things are pretty good.

I'm dead serious. Probably in a bad mood but it's the truth. From what you mention, I guess not everything is entirely bad. Probably there was a time when society was worse like during the time of Kings where everyone had to serve the King and if you didn't then that person is doomed no matter what.

 

[tgt]

In my opinion, this rather weak philosophical reasoning against having children crumbles in the face of three and half billion years of evolution arguing in favor.

You are absolutely right. If I was deeply in love enough with a girl, I'd be denying everything in this thread and I'd think instead the world is a perfect place. In fact, it did happen once but lasted less then 20 minutes. It ended because I saw something that made me upset.

The reasoning I gave was from purely a rational point of view. But most people don't behave or even like to think rationally.

 

[Evo]

The reasoning I gave was from purely a rational point of view. But most people don't behave or even like to think rationally.

Well, personally I think your line of thought leans more toward the irrational. I have a suggestion, read some history books, then you'll be thrilled to death about living in this time. You just haven't learned enough to be able to put things into perspective.

 

[cristo]

Well, personally I think your line of thought leans more toward the irrational. I have a suggestion, read some history books, then you'll be thrilled to death about living in this time. You just haven't learned enough to be able to put things into perspective.

... or just read or watch the news from time to time. tgt, I assure you that there are parts of the world where life is nothing like as cushy as it is in the US!

 

[DaveC426913]

I'd be denying everything in this thread and I'd think instead the world is a perfect place.

It doesn't need to be perfect.

We take from life what we choose. One can still love during wartime.

 

[tgt]

Well, personally I think your line of thought leans more toward the irrational. I have a suggestion, read some history books, then you'll be thrilled to death about living in this time. You just haven't learned enough to be able to put things into perspective.

I did mention something along these lines in reply to Moonbear's post. However, I'm not trying to make comparisons with the past. I'm making comparisons with a literal utopia where everything is fair, a bit like a mathematical world. Platonic world?

 

[Evo]

I'm making comparisons with a literal utopia where everything is fair, a bit like a mathematical world. Platonic world?

But that's not real, it's a fantasy.

 

[neu]

the concept of fairness is not immature or over simplistic. And if someone exclaims that something is unfair just because they don't get what the want, then they are misusing the word.

Everything that is "good" is defined relative to that which is "bad". Without the bad you cannot have the good. i.e. One cannot be rich if there is no-one poorer, healthy is a concept defined relative to unhealthy etc etc.

You might argue that statistical varation might even out the "good" and "bad" occurances for each individual over their lifetimes.

But man made unfairness skewes this argument. Why is it still acceptable that there are children born into poverty in developed countries? Should being born a woman mean you get paid less than a man? etc etc

Man-made unfairness is the most depressing aspect for me, as it so easily excused by those with a adolescent dog eat dog rationale that those who are ruthlessly sucessful are deservidly so.

As for the opening post, I was discussing this with a friend recently how I thought that having children was such a strong statement that "I want to bring life into this world" yet most parents probably wouldn't have considered this as their motivation at all. I think that this line of thought, like most existentialism, is somewhat non-applicable to life choices as humans are fundamentaly irrational creatures with little control over what we want/"need", and to try and alter our decision based upon existential lines of thought is to deprive ourselves of being Human to some degree.

anyway...

 

[edward]

This may sound a bit bizarre, yet I think true. Historically having children enabled tribes, kingdoms and countries to have armies to defend them. Yet Ironically it was to defend them against other tribes, kingdoms and countries.

At one time when the population was mostly rural, people had children to provide their own work force for agriculture because it helped insure survival. In some countries they still do.

The young also cared for the elderly and to some extent still do.

As for the OP. The world has always been unfair. It has always been survival of the fittest and until recently the fittest usually had the most children.

 

[Moonbear]

I did mention something along these lines in reply to Moonbear's post. However, I'm not trying to make comparisons with the past. I'm making comparisons with a literal utopia where everything is fair, a bit like a mathematical world. Platonic world?

And that's why it's irrational. Expecting some sort of utopia is not at all realistic. If one waited for a utopia to have children, the planet would have no humans on it.

 

[Borek]

until recently the fittest usually had the most children.

Now it is getting opposite.

 

[chaoseverlasting]

I didn't know about it then. I was only concerned about simple things. I didn't worry about the horrible things adults did to each other.

I forgot to mention the garden and the chickens, and the goats who lived next door.

In the first town I lived, there was a stone fountain in the park down by the beach. It changed colours. I thought somehow it was magic.

Where I lived there was no Cold War - there was no war. It was pretty quiet actually, except for the occasional crop duster in the hills and the waves breaking, or pounding when a storm blew in.

Isnt it kind of sad to lose that idea of the world? I mean, when you actually believed everything is possible. I know everything is possible, but I've kind of lost that blind belief that it is.

 

[ice109]

I don't see how your paraphrasing changes anything whatsoever.

umm stating the world is "unfair" is very personal. stating the world sucks is a statement of fact.

 

[robertm]

umm stating the world is "unfair" is very personal. stating the world sucks is a statement of fact.

I happen to think that the planet Earth is a fantastic place. I am by no means satisfied with the current state of affairs, but I do live in a (kind-of) secular nation with a wonderful quality of life and magnificent opportunity to accomplish feats my predecessors could scarcely dream of. Stating that "the world sucks" is immature and unfounded. Maybe, " A high percentage of the people alive today suck." I could probably agree with you there.

 

[DaveC426913]

umm stating the world is "unfair" is very personal. stating the world sucks is a statement of fact.

No, it's a statement of opinion; a personal one. Whether the OP thinks the world is unfair or that it "sucks" results in the same stream of responses.

 

[moe darklight]

The world is an unfair place, even in well off areas such as America and certainly not the most ideal of places. So why do want continue to want offsprings?

would you rather not being alive?

 

[rootX]

The world is an unfair place

Does that means it is 100% unfair during 100% of life time of an average person?

There's scarcity and then competition which is ugly [To me, Idea of perfection is nothingness - there is no observer].

I think most people live because they think tomorrow will be good and they have dreams/hope. It's obviously foolish because they deny that they have an end.

I am living and would have children when I grow up because I want to spend my money/love on others :). I guess most people have children because of love ...

 

[tgt]

As for the opening post, I was discussing this with a friend recently how I thought that having children was such a strong statement that "I want to bring life into this world" yet most parents probably wouldn't have considered this as their motivation at all. I think that this line of thought, like most existentialism, is somewhat non-applicable to life choices as humans are fundamentaly irrational creatures with little control over what we want/"need", and to try and alter our decision based upon existential lines of thought is to deprive ourselves of being Human to some degree.

Given that we share 97% of genes with chimps, I'd have to agree with that.

 

[tgt]

would you rather not being alive?

Yes, certainly.

 

[tgt]

And that's why it's irrational. Expecting some sort of utopia is not at all realistic. If one waited for a utopia to have children, the planet would have no humans on it.

I'm not expecting any utopia. Another view of seeing what I'm trying to get at is that I have very high expectations of the world around me and if those expectations are not met then I'd rather not live. That is completely rational. The irrational me would just try to rob the honest people and try to find as many beautiful girls as possible.

 

[Cyrus]

I'm not expecting any utopia. Another view of seeing what I'm trying to get at is that I have very high expectations of the world around me and if those expectations are not met then I'd rather not live. That is completely rational. The irrational me would just try to rob the honest people and try to find as many beautiful girls as possible.

You have 'expectations of the world' ...?

I don't expect the world to do squat.

 

[WarPhalange]

would you rather not being alive?

That question doesn't make sense. Having to choose between consciousness and not being conscious when you have never felt the latter is an impossible decision.

 

[moe darklight]

That question doesn't make sense. Having to choose between consciousness and not being conscious when you have never felt the latter is an impossible decision.

I know I'd love a million dollars and I know I'd rather not have to wear itchy contact lenses just to see clearly enough to go out everyday. Before you wrote your post you decided you'd rather write your post than not.

 

[vanesch]

The world is an unfair place, even in well off areas such as America and certainly not the most ideal of places. So why do want continue to want offsprings?

I think that the answer is that the people who do have offsprings don't care about the unfairness.

Why don't you read in "unfairness", "opportunity" ? It means that if you play it smart, you can get more out of the world than you would "fairly" deserve. Be part of the corrupt elite, and your life will look much better than it would in a fair world, no ?

The irrational me would just try to rob the honest people and try to find as many beautiful girls as possible.

See! You found out yourself!

 

[Moonbear]

Another view of seeing what I'm trying to get at is that I have very high expectations of the world around me and if those expectations are not met then I'd rather not live. That is completely rational.

No, that's not rational. Unrealistically high expectations are never rational. Nor is it rational to look at things, decide they aren't going the way to like, and decide you'd rather just not exist. A rational person looks at a problem and tries to find a solution.

The irrational me would just try to rob the honest people and try to find as many beautiful girls as possible.

How is that irrational, actually? The first part might land you in jail, but since you think the world is awful and not worth living in anyway, jail can't be any worse. Not that I'm advocating it, but it's not entirely an irrational choice. And, as for the second part, that's exactly what most men set out to do (the women try to find as many great men as possible...and yeah, some exceptions on either side). The more you meet, the better your chances are of finding one who will reproduce with you.

The choices you're presenting aren't rational, they are rationalizing...attempting to justify an irrational act to yourself or others.

But, basically, you've failed to show any connection in your argument of why unfairness in the world should be a limitation for procreation.

Maybe you just don't like children and have no interest in reproducing and are attempting to explain that to yourself rather than just accepting that's who you are?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Does this help?

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.

 

[tgt]

You have 'expectations of the world' ...?

I don't expect the world to do squat.

No, that's not rational. Unrealistically high expectations are never rational. Nor is it rational to look at things, decide they aren't going the way to like, and decide you'd rather just not exist. A rational person looks at a problem and tries to find a solution. How is that irrational, actually? The first part might land you in jail, but since you think the world is awful and not worth living in anyway, jail can't be any worse. Not that I'm advocating it, but it's not entirely an irrational choice. And, as for the second part, that's exactly what most men set out to do (the women try to find as many great men as possible...and yeah, some exceptions on either side). The more you meet, the better your chances are of finding one who will reproduce with you.

The choices you're presenting aren't rational, they are rationalizing...attempting to justify an irrational act to yourself or others.

But, basically, you've failed to show any connection in your argument of why unfairness in the world should be a limitation for procreation.

Maybe you just don't like children and have no interest in reproducing and are attempting to explain that to yourself rather than just accepting that's who you are?

I don't just hate children, I also hate living myself. And yes, I hate other livings things as well like most animals.

The point is if you want me to pass down my genes then it better be a bloody good world for the genes to survive in. Otherwise, which is the case of our world, I'd rather not pass down my genes and further would rather not have lived. This is all said by a completely rational me. However, I'm aware that if someone special enough comes along, I would completely deny everything in this thread and thereby be irrational.

 

[Astronuc]

The point is if you want me to pass down my genes then it better be a bloody good world for the genes to survive in.

Think about what one wrote! What does Cyrus have to do with passing one's reproduction?

Otherwise, which is the case of our world, I'd rather not pass down my genes and further would rather not have lived.

Umm - why not simply do what one can do to make the world somewhat better - fairer?


My youngest brother became a doctor OB/Gyn surgeon. Three months after he started a promising surgical career, he was diagnosed with leukemia (AML 5, the most aggressive type). He died within 11 months of the diagnosis leaving behind a 3 year old son and widow. That was rather unfair, wasn't it?


While one is alive, one has opportunity.


Rather than complain about how unfair the world is, stop complaining and do what one can do to improve the situation.

 

[Lisa!]

The world is an unfair place, even in well off areas such as America and certainly not the most ideal of places. So why do want continue to want offsprings?

I think that the answer is that the people who do have offsprings don't care about the unfairness.

I think people who don't commit a suicide and continue their lives despite this, don't care about the unfairness too!

 

[tgt]

Does this help?

A little but I believe good men don't exist. They will act bad at some stage in their lives.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

A little but I believe good men don't exist.

I'm sorry you feel that way. They always speak well of you.

 

[DaveC426913]

The point is if you want me to pass down my genes then it better be a bloody good world for the genes to survive in. Otherwise, which is the case of our world, I'd rather not pass down my genes and further would rather not have lived.

Why?

I mean, what is to be gained by not living and not passing down your genes?

 

[Moonbear]

I don't just hate children, I also hate living myself. And yes, I hate other livings things as well like most animals.

If this is your true feeling, then I strongly recommend that you seek psychiatric consultation. These are pretty strongly negative emotions you're expressing, and really aren't normal. Continuing this thread is not going to help with that.

At this point, I think this thread has run its course and it's time to lock it.