Theoretical Lossless Wave Propagation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the theoretical aspects of wave propagation, specifically focusing on the concept of directional wave propagation in elastic and inelastic materials. Participants explore the properties of an ideal medium that would allow for straight-line wave propagation and the factors in real materials that lead to deviations from this ideal behavior.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the existence of an ideal theoretical medium for directional wave propagation and the necessary properties of such a medium.
  • One participant notes that real materials deviate from ideal behavior due to non-harmonic forces between atoms, imperfections in the lattice, and chaotic behavior among atoms.
  • Another participant questions the meaning of "harmonic" in the context of atomic forces and suggests that the potential wells of atoms are not simple quadratic shapes.
  • There is a discussion about whether vacuum can be considered a perfect medium for wave propagation, with some suggesting it behaves like an ideal medium despite not being a medium in the traditional sense.
  • One participant mentions that all waves diffract, but questions whether diffraction occurs only when waves encounter surfaces of dissimilar substances.
  • Another participant argues that while waves can propagate without diffraction in a vacuum, this is typically an idealized scenario that does not occur in practice.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of wave propagation in ideal versus real media, with no consensus reached on the properties of an ideal medium or the conditions under which diffraction occurs.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding of material science and the complexities involved in defining ideal versus real wave propagation scenarios.

inflector
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I'm working on trying to understand wave propagation. In particular, I'm trying to understand directional wave propagation in elastic and inelastic materials.

Is there an ideal theoretical medium in which it is possible to propagate waves in an entirely directional i.e. straight-line manner so that the energy could be picked up at the other end of the medium? What would the properties of this ideal medium have to be?

Another way to get at the same issue is to ask what properties of real substances cause them to diverge from this ideal medium?

Thanks,

Curtis
 
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Well, first of all the forces that acts between the units in a real lattice are not completely harmonic, so there is a deviation from the wave equation right there. In addition, the lattice is not perfect, leading to a spreading of the wave, and also to the fact that the atoms do not oscillate in a simple manner about their equilibrium position. In the end some of the effects from an initial "perfect" wave will end up in all sorts of directions within the medium, with different polarizations. In practice there will always be chaotic behaviour among such a large number of atoms.

But I know little about material science, so maybe someone else will chime in with some "real world" knowledge.

There is a theoretical medium that is described infinitesimally as a chain of atoms with ideal springs between them. And possibly something like it for 2d and 3d.

The vacuum and electromagnetic waves is a good example, but that ain't a medium...

Torquil
 
Thanks Torquil,

In what sense do you mean that the forces that act between not act harmonically? I'm not sure what "harmonic" means in that context.

Can I assume that vacuum acts as if it is such a perfect medium even though it isn't a medium? Therefore that a perfect medium would act that way i.e. that vacuum acts like a connection of infinitesimal particles interconnected by infinitesimal ideal springs in three dimensions with respect to the propagation of electromagnetic waves (even though we know there's no medium there)?

- Curtis
 
inflector said:
Thanks Torquil,

In what sense do you mean that the forces that act between not act harmonically? I'm not sure what "harmonic" means in that context.

I may be the case that I misused the term. I meant that the potential well that each atom is located within is not a simple x^2 shape like it would be with the ideal springs. It would be a good approx. though for very small fluctuations, so I guess in the limit of a weak wave it would not be a problem.

Can I assume that vacuum acts as if it is such a perfect medium even though it isn't a medium? Therefore that a perfect medium would act that way i.e. that vacuum acts like a connection of infinitesimal particles interconnected by infinitesimal ideal springs in three dimensions with respect to the propagation of electromagnetic waves (even though we know there's no medium there)?

Yes I think so.
 
inflector said:
<snip>

Is there an ideal theoretical medium in which it is possible to propagate waves in an entirely directional i.e. straight-line manner so that the energy could be picked up at the other end of the medium? What would the properties of this ideal medium have to be?
<snip>

All waves diffract. The only oddball case I can think of are "bessel beams"

www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~opttrap/atomtrap/papers/Bessel_CP.pdf[/URL]

But those involve a singularity in the wavefront; I don't think an elastic wave can support such a singularity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
All wave diffract, yes, but don't they have to hit a surface of some dissimilar substance before this diffraction occurs?

Light, for example, diffracts when it passes through slits but not in a vacuum without slits. Right?
 
I'm not sure what you mean- I suppose if you had a point source isotropically radiating, the wavefront propagates without diffraction. But such a configuration does not ever occur, except in a limit: distant stars, (possibly) a single fluorescent molecule, etc.
 

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