Thermodynamic Reversible/Irreversible Closed Systems

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem involving a rigid storage tank containing steam, which is heated from 300 to 400 °C. Participants explore the concepts of heat transfer, entropy changes, and the nature of reversible versus irreversible processes in closed systems.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how to approach the problem and seeks guidance on breaking it down into manageable components.
  • Another participant questions whether the steam is saturated or superheated at 300 °C, suggesting that assuming saturation could help determine internal energy and specific volume.
  • A participant highlights the lack of clarity in the problem statement regarding the state of the steam and asks about the implications of reversibility or irreversibility in this context.
  • One participant argues that the process is irreversible because heat cannot return to the reservoir without work, using an analogy of two blocks at different temperatures reaching equilibrium.
  • Another participant suggests using a T-v diagram to confirm that the steam remains in the superheated region and outlines a method to calculate changes in internal energy and entropy using steam tables.
  • There is mention of using the first law of thermodynamics to relate changes in internal energy to heat transfer, and how to calculate entropy changes for both the steam and the reservoir.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the steam is saturated or superheated, and there are differing views on the implications of reversibility versus irreversibility in the context of the problem. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific state of the steam and its effects on the calculations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the need for assumptions about the state of the steam, the dependence on steam tables for accurate values, and the implications of the rigid container on the process being analyzed. There are also unresolved aspects regarding the exact nature of the heat transfer and entropy changes.

Nah346
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I am completely lost with this problem. How would I go about breaking it up into manageable components that so I won't get lost in the problem?

Homework Statement



A 2 m3 rigid storage tank containing 10 kg of steam is heated from 300 to 400 C by transferring heat from a hot reservoir at 500 C. Determine the total amount of heat transferred to accomplish this change. Determine the entropy change of the steam, the surroundings, and the universe. Assume steam is a real fluid following the steam tables in Appendix A.III.

Homework Equations





The Attempt at a Solution

 
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This problem is a bit vague. Is the steam saturated or superheated at 300 C? If you assume it is saturated, you can determine its internal energy and its specific volume. Because the container is rigid, the specific volume remains constant when you heat because both mass and volume are constant. Once again go to the superheat tables for 400 C and determine the pressure and internal energy at the known specific volume. The difference in internal energies is the heat transfer. This should get you started.
 
Thanks for the response. There seems to be no indication in the problem statement whether or not the steam is saturated or superheated. The topic I am currently covering in class is Reversible/Irreversible Closed Systems and Unsteady Flow Systems. Do you know what part of the problem statement indicates reversiblity or irreversibility and how that concept applies here?
 
The situation is irreversible because there is no way you can get the heat from the rigid container back into the reservoir (returning container and reservoir to initial states)without supplying work. Think of two blocks at different temperatures coming into contact and are isolated. They come to a common temperature. But they cannot be returned to their initial states without the addition of work. Heat will not move from cold to hot without work (heat pump).

You can determine the entropy change of the steam when heated from 300 C to 400 C from steam tables. You can also determine the heat transfer needed from internal energy changes based on steam tables. Now assuming the reservoir temperature does not change (big reservoir), you can determine the entropy change (decrease) of the reservoir. Comparing that to the increase in entropy of the container contents, you can determine the change in the entropy of the universe for this process. As you know it must increase because the process is irreversible.
 
This is not my specialty but look at the following:

By looking at a T-v diagram (T = 300C and 400C and v = 0.2m^3/kg) for H2O you can see that you're always in the superheated steam region. From those two data points you can look up the change in internal specific energy Δu which, since W = 0 gives you Δq (1st law). Multiply by your actual specific volume gives you your total ΔQ.

Changes in entropy and enthalpy are read right off your steam tables.

My steam tables list T and v for a certain p, spaced 0.2 MPa apart, so I would have to interpolate a bit but I got p(300C) ~ 1.2 MPa and p(400C) ~ 1.6 MPa from which two tables I got Δu ~ 160 kJ/kg. Use the 1st law to get Δq and then scale to your actual specific volumer.

The reservoir at 500C loses entropy ΔS = ΔQ/Tr J/K where Tr is reservoir temperature. The universe ΔS is ΔS of the steam - loss of reservoir entropy.
 

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