[thermodynamics] Is it possible problem.

  • Thread starter Thread starter constfang
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Thermodynamics
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem involving a piston-cylinder device containing air. Participants explore the feasibility of a process characterized by specific initial and final temperatures and pressures, alongside a heat input, while addressing the implications of entropy changes in the system.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the process has a positive total entropy change but questions its feasibility, citing a professor's assertion that it is impossible.
  • Another participant calculates the temperature increase required for the heat input and suggests that only 17.073 kJ/kg is needed to reach the final temperature, raising concerns about the unspecified heat capacity (Cp).
  • A third participant provides a detailed calculation using the first law of thermodynamics, determining the specific work output and the entropy changes for both the system and surroundings, concluding that the total entropy change is positive.
  • Despite the positive total entropy change, the same participant expresses uncertainty about what might be missing in the analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of the process. While some calculations suggest a positive total entropy change, which could imply the process is possible, others reference the professor's claim that it is impossible, indicating unresolved disagreement.

Contextual Notes

There is uncertainty regarding the specific heat capacity (Cp), which is not provided, and its potential impact on the calculations. Additionally, the implications of the positive total entropy change are debated without a clear resolution.

constfang
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
[thermodynamics] "Is it possible" problem.

Air in a piston-cylinder device, heat input
Initially: T1 = 21Celsius, P1 = 2 atm
Finally: T2 = 38Celsius, P2 = 2 atm = P1 (isobaric)
Heat source: TH = 260Celsius, qH = 23 kJ/kg (heat input)
Find:
a) specific work output, w =?
b) whether the process is possible?

Illustration figure can be found here:
hxxp://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4540/tempca1.jpg

The process have a positive total entropy change but the professor said it is impossible, positive total entropy change is true but still something missing, anyone know what is it?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Have you calculated the temperature increase when 23 kJ is added to one kilogram of air?
 
Mapes said:
Have you calculated the temperature increase when 23 kJ is added to one kilogram of air?

Genius guy! we actually only need a qH of 17.073kJ/kg to raise the temperture of air to 38Celsius, but I'm not sure if it's the answer that the professor wanted, because Cp was not given, if Cp by some reason becomes large then it's still possible.
 
Here's a little detail about my solution:
from 1st law:
delta(u) = q - w

q = 23kJ/kg
delta(u) = u2 - u1 = 221.25 - 210.40 = 10.85 kJ/kg (u obtained from table)
=> w = 23kJ - 10.85 kJ/kg = 12.15kJ/kg

Entropy change of the system: (treated as ideal gas):
delta(s)system = Cp*ln(T2/T1) = 1.005*ln(311K/294K)=0.00565kJ/kgK

Entropy change of surrounding:
delta(s)surround = q/T = 23/533K = 0.04315kJ/kgK

delta(s)total = delta(s)surround - delta(s)system = 0.04315kJ/kgK - 0.00565kJ/kgK = 0.0375kJ/kgK (>0)

Total Entropy change is larger than zero, the process seems to be possible...
what's missing ?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
3K