Suggestion Third Party Moderation for Objectivity in Discussions

[Count Iblis]

Nonsense. As I said to your post before, your case has been discussed by everyone on the staff.

Such "discussions by everyone on the staff" are perhaps an important part of the problem, I can't be sure about that, though. Anyway, I'll explain my point in detail in another thread, otherwise Dave's more general point about third party moderation would get lost here.

 

[ZapperZ]

Actually, not only is there a systemic issue with the physics subforums, but this is having some real impact on discussions. So, it is not just limited to hurting the feelings of someone when giving infractions.

Of course, I have to give evidence of my claim. I think it is best to do this in a new thread when I have more time later today.

In your case, the problem is that we were TOO LENIENT in taking appropriate actions. To me, that was a systemic problem that I had to bring out with the rest of the Mentors.

Zz.

 

[Count Iblis]

In your case, the problem is that we were TOO LENIENT in taking appropriate actions. To me, that was a systemic problem that I had to bring out with the rest of the Mentors.

Zz.

Thanks, I'll take this new data point about Mentor discussions into account in the new thread.

 

[jostpuur]

You say there is more than one moderator involved in the adjudication process (say the Moderator involved in the thread itself is ModA and, when a dispute come ups, then ModB and modC get involved in the decision process about adjudicating it).

Why must modA be the one to take the punitive action on the member in the thread? Why is it not modB or modC, both of which know as much as modA, but neither of which are interested parties on the discussion under dispute?

If ModA makes a moderation decision partially for emotional reasons, there is a chance that ModB and ModC will think that "well that infraction wasn't really worth punishment, but the punishment isn't worth canceling either."

If ModB and ModC were given the responsibility to carry out the moderation decisions, they might be a chance that they disagree with ModA and say "mr A, that's not really a infraction yet".

Hence, if it is in moderators interest to use moderation power to enforce their own opinions, it will be beneficial to not require third party intervention.

Wasn't this question nearly rhetorical? I'm sure everybody here understands the real answer.

However, they are not sufficient evidence of a systemic problem with the moderation system.

When a person gets banned in politics, philosophy or in skepticism subforum, the person gets banned from math and physics subforums too. It makes no sense to ignore problems in some subforums on the basis that those problems are not present everywhere.

Btw, I guess there are no technical obstacles related to bans for specific subforums?

Not that that would be my business now... I'm not very active in politics, philosophy or in skepticism nowadays at least... but I guess it doesn't hurt if the possibility gets mentioned. Perhaps some guys get interested in the possibility later if they spend time on it.

 

[jostpuur]

Count Iblis, I recommend that you try to record yourself your experiences in the internet.

Some years ago I thought that I had met so dumb people on the internet, that I should start saving these discussions on my hard drive so that they would bring entertainment to me later on.

However, when I read these saved discussions years after they had been saved, and when I had almost already forgotten them, I noticed that a guy with a username "jostpuur" was writing pretty dumb comments. I then destroyed these recordings from my hard drive so that they would not further embarrass me due to some accidental leak.

You see, recording internet experiences is "win guaranteed"-stuff! If your opponents were dumb, the recordings will bring you entertainment later on. If instead you where the dumb one, then seeing the recordings later on will make you wiser! Either way, you will benefit!

 

[DanP]

I *really* don't understand why you guys bother with this.

If you value the place so much that you can't live without it, obey the rules, good or bad. Look, it's their board, akin to their house. When you visit you obey the rules of the home master.

If you don't care and you want to have fun on internet, make some friends, have a good laugh, do whatever you want, and screw infractions. You get banned, you move along. In either case, don't expect perfect moderation and perfectly unbiased moderators. Or that the quality of moderation be the same for all of them. Such things do not exist, humans are simply not capable of being unbiased.

Less complains and more fun.

 

[Borek]

Nor do I. Much of the dissent comes from people who have run afoul of the system. It is unsurprising and not particularly illuminating that those who run afoul of the system are unhappy with the system. I suspect you'd find the same phenomena in a prison.

Well, three members on page one of the thread.

I am sorry Dave, I am afraid I can't be counted like that.

I am not _unhappy_ with the system. I supported your idea as it looks good, but after learning that all infractions are listed as a forum posts in the inner-inner-circle, which makes the moderating process transparent to all Mentors, I think that's an alternate mechanism that serves similar purpose. It makes it difficult to abuse the power.

 

[NeoDevin]

When a person gets banned in politics, philosophy or in skepticism subforum, the person gets banned from math and physics subforums too. It makes no sense to ignore problems in some subforums on the basis that those problems are not present everywhere.

Btw, I guess there are no technical obstacles related to bans for specific subforums?

This might be something to consider. Since most of the problems originate in the PF Lounge, bans from particular subfora instead of global bans might solve some of the problem.

 

[Evo]

This might be something to consider. Since most of the problems originate in the PF Lounge, bans from particular subfora instead of global bans might solve some of the problem.

We very rarely have anyone banned solely for actions in the Lounge. And the ones that have been banned there rarely contribute to the science forums. No one has been permanently banned for getting out of line in the Lounge at all this year. People that have been banned were banned for infractions they received in multiple forums, were outright crackpots, spammers, or sockpuppets of banned members. See, it's that perception thing again. You see someone arguing, then you see a line through their name and the assumption is that's why they were banned. Some of those people have 3 or more pages of infractions from all over the forum before finally getting banned.

 

[rewebster]

I've seen a couple mentors abuse their 'power' more than once, and often its the same couple of mentors. Of course, some like 'power' more than others and they appear to step over the line of being 'mentor', to me, because they 'think' they're right; and, because they were given the power of a mentor, and they use it.

Most mentors, I believe, are here doing what they're doing and doing it almost always in a good way.

This forum isn't perfect.

I've seen other mentors defend other mentors, the way some members defend other members, and some members defend mentors---even when I don't see a clear logically reason.

It's too bad that the 'discussion' of the infraction (in the mentors' subforum) isn't open more to that member in some way, because it may often be avoided.

I think that some mentors need counseling more than some others. And, just because some people are called 'mentors' doesn't make their opinion correct, or that they are doing the right thing.

Do you think members report or have the idea that they can report mentors?

I'll tell you what, I'm going to do it if I see a problem with them from now on, even if I'm not involved with the discussion, and I think other members should too--that may make the other mentors more aware of problems.

 

[Evo]

Do you think members report or have the idea that they can report mentors?

Members report mentors all of the time, and we do discuss it.

 

[lisab]

I've seen a couple mentors abuse their 'power' more than once, and often its the same couple of mentors. Of course, some like 'power' more than others and they appear to step over the line of being 'mentor', to me, because they 'think' they're right; and, because they were given the power of a mentor, and they use it.

Most mentors, I believe, are here doing what they're doing and doing it almost always in a good way.

This forum isn't perfect.

I've seen other mentors defend other mentors, the way some members defend other members, and some members defend mentors---even when I don't see a clear logically reason.

It's too bad that the 'discussion' of the infraction (in the mentors' subforum) isn't open more to that member in some way, because it may often be avoided.

I think that some mentors need counseling more than some others. And, just because some people are called 'mentors' doesn't make their opinion correct, or that they are doing the right thing.

Do you think members report or have the idea that they can report mentors?

I'll tell you what, I'm going to do it if I see a problem with them from now on, even if I'm not involved with the discussion, and I think other members should too--that may make the other mentors more aware of problems.

An excellent idea!

Based on the give-and-take in this thread, I think members and mentors don't always interpret interactions the same way. Maybe the best way to address this is for the committed members to be more active giving feedback, using the report key.

 

[Borek]

Maybe the best way to address this is for the committed members to be more active giving feedback, using the report key.

Who will be the first to risk?

 

[lisab]

Who will be the first to risk?

I nominate you!

 

[rewebster]

I nominate you!

I double nominate you!




(maybe if the 'report' button was just renamed to 'evaluate, please' button)-


--I like the way microsoft has a '?' next to some things---maybe one of those could be put next to the 'report' button with a description of its purpose which would include being able to report a bad/over the top post even by a mentor.

 

[russ_watters]

We've had issues with people not understanding the functioning of the report button in the past and have revised the description in the terms of use at least once inan attept to ensure people aren't shy about reporting posts.

 

[NeoDevin]

I've reported posts by mentors lots of times.

 

[Redbelly98]

We've had issues with people not understanding the functioning of the report button in the past and have revised the description in the terms of use at least once inan attept to ensure people aren't shy about reporting posts.

What some members may be unaware of is that, when you go to report a post, you may ignore the message that says:

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) and unappropriated posts.​

That message is a built-in feature of the forum, Greg does not have the ability to change it unfortunately. Feel free to report any post where you think there might be some issue. Whether or not we decide to take action, it will at least be brought to our attention.

 

[rewebster]

What some members may be unaware of is that, when you go to report a post, you may ignore the message that says:

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) and unappropriated posts.​

ignore because 'unappropriated' is not the right word?

 

[Evo]

ignore because 'unappropriated' is not the right word?

Believe me, we've brought that up before.

 

[rewebster]

Believe me, we've brought that up before.

how do I know that's not one of the two times you (as a woman) are not telling the truth /day?

 

[phizo]

I have just posted in here to raise an isue regarding a locked thread and that thread was locked too.

Who is this Greg I can appeal too?

 

[Evo]

I have just posted in here to raise an isue regarding a locked thread and that thread was locked too.

Who is this Greg I can appeal too?

Greg is unreachable. I PM'd you. The thread will remain locked. I suggest that you read the message I sent you.

 

[phizo]

Greg is unreachable. I PM'd you. The thread will remain locked. I suggest that you read the message I sent you.

This one?

"Right now all of your posts have come under scrutiny and you are being discussed. I suggest that you cut out the nonsense if you wish to continue to be allowed to post here. This is a serious forum."

Firstly I welcome any scrutiny of my posts because I don't see anything wrong with them.
As I don't believe I have posted any nonsense, I will look for another forum.

 

[rhody]

I want to make a single observation about a new member's first post that I witnessed. After reading it without going into details I knew they were trying to sell half baked ideas, not listen to reason. They had all the classic signs of a crackpot. I instinctively knew that that member's first post would be their last. I even e-mailed a couple of friend's jokingly about it.

Sadly, I was correct. On the bright side, if everyone with an agenda without basing their posts on real science, PF would become a wasteland in a hurry.

I am grateful we have the mentor's we do here. No one is perfect, and the honest discussion by mentors about peer mentors behavior in this thread proves it. That being said, I want to end on a positive note, keep up the good work, at times it goes unnoticed, however, I for one appreciate it.

Rhody...

 

[Moonbear]

Do you think members report or have the idea that they can report mentors?

Just so you have fair warning...doing something like that is a good way to get nominated to be a mentor. (Well, as long as it's done respectfully, anyway.)

And, actually, it has happened that members report a mentor when a mentor has themselves crossed the line. And, I do recall times when the mentor's posts were the ones deleted as being the ones that were problematic. That's also why there isn't just one or two mentors, but a whole group of them with different personalities and perspectives and areas of expertise to provide some internal checks and balances. There are times when moderation decisions have practically turned into a bar brawl in the mentor's forum. Members have had infractions reversed. Again, if they respectfully dispute it, the mentors do listen.

 

[DaveC426913]

OK, I'm satisfied that this issue has been given due analysis.

I can't expect that every single time a user (even me) gets on the wrong side of an infraction that the system will be overhauled.

The system is working extremely well, no one can argue that.

Carry on.

 

[Count Iblis]

OK, I'm satisfied that this issue has been given due analysis.

I can't expect that every single time a user (even me) gets on the wrong side of an infraction that the system will be overhauled.

The system is working extremely well, no one can argue that.

Carry on.

It works extremely well as far as dealing with the crackpot problem. Because most other forums fail in this regard, this makes PF stand out as almost unique.

However, the methods used to achieve this have side effects and addressing those side effects is not appreciated. And that reminds me of private discussions I had with a friend in East Germany in 1981: "The system is working well, we don't have poverty here, there are no homeless people freezing to death in winter on the streets. And yes, we do have a handful of dissidents in jail, no system can be perfect in all regards..."

 

[ZapperZ]

It works extremely well as far as dealing with the crackpot problem. Because most other forums fail in this regard, this makes PF stand out as almost unique.

However, the methods used to achieve this have side effects and addressing those side effects is not appreciated. And that reminds me of private discussions I had with a friend in East Germany in 1981: "The system is working well, we don't have poverty here, there are no homeless people freezing to death in winter on the streets. And yes, we do have a handful of dissidents in jail, no system can be perfect in all regards..."

Except that people in the old East Germany can't leave to choose another place to live in. As far as I can tell, no one is stopping you from walking out the door.

Zz.

 

[DanP]

Except that people in the old East Germany can't leave to choose another place to live in. As far as I can tell, no one is stopping you from walking out the door.

Zz.

Oh, they could choose to leave to another place to live in. There is always choice. Only that they shoot dead the ones who tried to leave.