Time-reparameterization invariance

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Discussion Overview

This discussion explores the concept of time-reparameterization invariance in classical Hamiltonian mechanics, focusing on the use of Lagrange multipliers to reformulate the action of a classical system. Participants examine the implications of introducing a 'clock' variable and the associated constraints on the system's dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant introduces a parameterized action involving Lagrange multipliers and questions how it reduces to a simpler form.
  • Another participant suggests that the two actions are equivalent when the constraint R=0 is applied, implying a specific relationship between the variables.
  • A different participant argues that the constraint R=0 is assumed rather than proven, emphasizing that the Euler-Lagrange equations do not uniquely determine certain variables like Pi and H.
  • Further clarification is provided regarding the nature of the equations derived from varying the action, indicating that the constraint adds necessary information to solve the system.
  • An analogy is presented using a simpler maximization problem with constraints to illustrate the role of Lagrange multipliers in determining solutions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the constraint R=0 and its implications for the system. There is no consensus on whether the constraint can be derived or if it must be assumed, indicating an unresolved debate regarding the treatment of Lagrange multipliers in this context.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the assumptions made about the constraint R and the lack of clarity on the values of certain variables derived from the Euler-Lagrange equations. The discussion does not resolve these issues.

spaghetti3451
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This post considers an aspect of time-reparametization invariance in classical Hamiltonian mechanics. Specifically, it concerns the use of Lagrange multipliers to rewrite the action for a classical system in a time-reparametization-invariant way.

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Prelude:

Suppose we have a system with a single degree of freedom ##q(t)## with conjugate momentum ##p##, and action
$$I = \int dt\ L.$$
The Hamiltonian is the Legendre transform
$$H(p,q) = p\dot{q}-L(q,\dot{q})|_{p=\partial L/\partial\dot{q}}.$$
The independent variable ##t## is special. It labels the dynamics but does not participate as a degree of freedom.

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Time-reparametrization symmetry:

Let us introduce a fake time-reparameterization symmetry by labelling the dynamics by an arbitrary parameter ##\tau## and introducing a physical 'clock' variable ##T##, treating it as a dynamical degree of freedom. So we consider the system of variables and conjugate momenta
$$q(\tau),\qquad p(\tau),\qquad T(\tau), \qquad \Pi(\tau)$$
where ##\Pi## is the momentum conjugate to ##T##. This is equivalent to the original original system if we use the 'parameterized' action
$$I' = \int d\tau\ (pq'+\Pi T'-NR), \qquad R \equiv \Pi + H(p,q),$$
where prime ##= d=d/d\tau##. Here ##N(\tau)## is a Lagrange multiplier, which enforces the 'constraint equation'
$$\Pi + H(p,q) = 0.$$

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My difficulty lies with the introduction of the Lagrange multipliers. How do you show that the action

$$I' = \int d\tau\ (pq'+\Pi T'-NR), \qquad R \equiv \Pi + H(p,q),$$

with Lagrange multiplier ##N(\tau)##, reduces to the action

$$I' = \int d\tau\ (pq' - H(p,q)T')?$$
 
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spaghetti3451 said:
My difficulty lies with the introduction of the Lagrange multipliers. How do you show that the action

$$I' = \int d\tau\ (pq'+\Pi T'-NR), \qquad R \equiv \Pi + H(p,q),$$

with Lagrange multiplier ##N(\tau)##, reduces to the action

$$I' = \int d\tau\ (pq' - H(p,q)T')?$$

Well, they certainly are the same once you plug in R=0 (which implies that \Pi = -H).
 
stevendaryl said:
Well, they certainly are the same once you plug in R=0 (which implies that \Pi = -H).

No, you solve the Euler-Lagrange equation for ##N## to find that ##R=0##. This is your constraint.
 
spaghetti3451 said:
No, you solve the Euler-Lagrange equation for ##N## to find that ##R=0##. This is your constraint.

I think you have it backwards. The constraint is not something you prove is true. It's what you assume is true. Then you use the constraint to find the value of the Lagrange multiplier (if you care about that--it's usually not necessary).

The Euler-Lagrange equations do not uniquely determine \Pi, they only imply that \Pi is a constant. And they also imply that H is constant. So the combination \Pi + H is some constant, but the Euler-Lagrange equations don't determine what that constant is. They give the following equations (varying all 4 quantities: q, p, \Pi, T:

  1. \frac{dq}{d\tau} -N \frac{\partial H}{\partial p} = 0
  2. -N \frac{\partial H}{\partial q} = \frac{dp}{d\tau}
  3. \frac{dT}{d\tau} - N = 0
  4. \frac{d\Pi}{d\tau} = 0
There is no information about the value of \Pi other than that it's constant. The constraint provides another equation: R = 0. With that additional equation, you have 5 equations and 5 unknowns (p,q,\Pi,T, N.

Here's a much simpler example for using Lagrange multipliers: Suppose you want to maximize x+y subject to the constraint that x^2 + y^2 = 1. Then you create the variational problem: Maximize:

x + y - \lambda R (where R = x^2 + y^2 - 1

Varying x gives: 1 - 2 \lambda x = 0
Varying y gives: 1 - 2 \lambda y = 0

So the solution is x = \frac{1}{2\lambda}, y = \frac{1}{2\lambda}. That doesn't determine the value of R (and it also doesn't determine \lambda). You just get: R = \frac{1 - 2 \lambda^2}{2\lambda^2}. You have to impose R=0 as an additional equation, you can't derive it. Once you impose the constraint R = 0, you uniquely determine \lambda = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}, which allows you to solve for x and y.
 
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