Titius-Bode law, any analytical or numerical derivation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Titius-Bode law, exploring whether there are analytical or numerical derivations for it. Participants consider both mathematical approaches and simulations of the early solar system to understand the pattern of planetary distances. The conversation touches on historical context, theoretical implications, and related phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express skepticism about the Titius-Bode law being merely a coincidence and suggest the possibility of a mathematical derivation.
  • There is a proposal to simulate the early solar system to see if the Titius-Bode pattern emerges from such models.
  • One participant notes that the law predicts outer planets to be roughly twice as far from the Sun as the next inner planet, but acknowledges that not all celestial bodies fit this pattern.
  • Some participants speculate that the Titius-Bode law may be a regularity arising from underlying physical laws, such as gravitational waves or density waves from the formation of the solar system.
  • Questions are raised about the nature of gravitational waves and whether density waves can exist in space, with some participants clarifying that density waves could refer to phenomena like spiral arms in galaxies.
  • References to academic papers are made, with discussions on the use of Monte Carlo methods to assess whether observed patterns are due to chance or have a physical basis.
  • There is mention of a paper that critiques the use of Monte Carlo procedures in testing distributions, emphasizing the need for clarity in research objectives.
  • Historical references to Kepler and Newton are made, discussing how their observations and theories have evolved over time, including the notion of geometric arrangements in celestial bodies.
  • One participant points out geometric progressions in the structure of Saturn's rings, suggesting a connection to the Titius-Bode law.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of the Titius-Bode law, with some suggesting it may be a coincidence while others propose it could stem from deeper physical principles. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on assumptions about the nature of gravitational waves and density waves, which are not universally accepted. The discussion also highlights the complexity of testing the validity of the Titius-Bode law through simulations and statistical methods.

Ulysees
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They say this is just by chance. But maybe some bright spark has come up with a mathematical derivation for it?

Alternatively, what about simulating the cloud of the early solar system on a computer. Would the Titius-Bode pattern of the planet distances arise?

Here's the law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titius-Bode_law
 
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Ulysees said:
They say this is just by chance. But maybe some bright spark has come up with a mathematical derivation for it?

Alternatively, what about simulating the cloud of the early solar system on a computer. Would the Titius-Bode pattern of the planet distances arise?

Here's the law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titius-Bode_law

The law relates the semi-major axis, a, of each planet outward from the sun in units such that...For the outer planets, each planet is 'predicted' to be roughly twice as far away from the Sun as the next inner object.

The four large satellites of Jupiter plus the largest inner satellite — Amalthea — adhere to a regular, but non-Bode, spacing with the four innermost locked into orbital periods that are each twice that of the next inner satellite.



this means that every third moon is twice as far away.
 
Its among the more interesting things to say, read in history since there is a mystic code revealed behind the planetary distances.

Two or three last planets like Pluto don't match the pattern - fortunately now they're not considered planets.

Most likely its not a "law" but more like regularity that emerged from some other law - gravitational waves or waves of density of matter when system was formed.

More interesting reading:
- tidal waves
- gravitational resonance
- proof that Saturn's rings can not be solid
 
giann_tee said:
gravitational waves or waves of density of matter when system was formed.

Gravitational waves? What are these? You mean the waves of density? How can there be waves of density in space?
 
Gravitational waves

Ulysees said:
Gravitational waves? What are these? You mean the waves of density? How can there be waves of density in space?

he means like the spiral arms of a galaxy.
 
Ulysees said:
Gravitational waves? What are these? You mean the waves of density? How can there be waves of density in space?

Now that you specified that expression and repeated it in public, I must add that "gravitational waves" don't entirely exist... they're still theoretical. Anyway that would be too weak in our solar system. The expression reminds me of something that can have a resonance and wave patterns - but I imagined that.

Waves of density are sound waves for example. Planets appear to be in order of larger and larger masses that differentiated from one cloud. Explosion is a wave no? Am I making impact?
 
giann_tee said:
Am I making impact?

Not really, but thanks for the comments, they seem to come from an inventive mind and I appreciate that.
 
Titus-Bode type of laws have been discussed in two papers by Graner & Dubrulle in Astronomy and Astrophysics, available to anyone on ADS. At ADS you can find many papers actually on the Titius-Bode law (note the "i" in Titius!) and here is the list.
 
  • #10
Thanks. I noticed this:

"The question of whether the observed patterns have some physical basis or are due to chance may be addressed using a Monte Carlo approach."

Monte Carlo sounds like repeating many times the simulation of the formation of the planets. I wonder if that's what is done here:

http://esoads.eso.org/abs/2003MNRAS.341.1174L
 
  • #11
Ulysees said:
Thanks. I noticed this:

"The question of whether the observed patterns have some physical basis or are due to chance may be addressed using a Monte Carlo approach."

Monte Carlo sounds like repeating many times the simulation of the formation of the planets. I wonder if that's what is done here:

http://esoads.eso.org/abs/2003MNRAS.341.1174L

Guess you will have to read the paper and find out. (full scanned article (GIF))
 
  • #13
Actually, the paper by Lynch is very interesting, because it shows that you cannot e.g. just use "a Monte Carlo procedure" to test whether a distribution is chance or not. Even if they do not show whether TB is real or not, it does make a good wake up call for researchers to think about what exactly they want to test. A continuation of this paper is done by Neslušan, which you can find here.

Also, after Graner & Dubrulle it should not come as a big surprise that Li et al. find something in their calculations that resembles a kind of Titius-Bode law.
 
  • #14
Kepler and Newton are like a story of how things become cosmology by observation, research and thought. Today the natural laws are less of an experience but then, Newton's las became a universal law, shown to rule far out into space in same way.
Today Kepler's laws are even wrong and he became known for a famous wrong question: why are there 6 planets? All of you believe it is just a coincidence. Kepler's solution was geometrical assembly of platonic solids - I don't know how many of those exist but now there's a 3D printer that can capture interest for experiments. Throwing rocket into orbit would be an experiment that makes sense however.
 
  • #15
Isn't it obvious looking at the saturn's rings that there are geometric progressions in thickness and distance of the rings - as well as some little degree of spiralness?
 

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