Topology: Understanding open sets

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a topology defined on the set ##X=\mathbb{N}^2\cup\{(0,0)\##. Participants are tasked with exploring the properties of open sets in this topology, including axioms for open sets, closure properties, and the nature of sequences converging to the point ##(0,0)##.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants attempt to visualize the open sets defined by the topology and question the implications of the conditions given for membership in the set of open sets. There are discussions about the meaning of specific notation and whether the logical operator in the definition is indeed an "or" or "and".

Discussion Status

There is an ongoing exploration of the definitions and properties of the topology, with some participants providing clarifications and corrections regarding the conditions for open sets. Multiple interpretations of the notation and definitions are being discussed, indicating a productive exchange of ideas.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about specific terms and conditions in the problem statement, particularly regarding the notation used and its implications for the definition of open sets. There is also a mention of the need to check whether certain properties hold under the defined topology.

nightingale123
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Homework Statement


We define ##X=\mathbb{N}^2\cup\{(0,0)\}## and ##\tau## ( the family of open sets) like this
##U\in\tau\iff(0,0)\notin U\lor \exists N\ni : n\in\mathbb{N},n>N\implies(\{n\}\times\mathbb{N})\backslash U\text{ is finite}##
##a)## Show that ##\tau## satisfies that axioms for open sets
##b)## Show that ##(0,0)## lies in the Closure of ##\mathbb{N}^2##
##c)## Describe closed sets in topology ##\tau##
##d)## show that there doesn't exists a sequence##(x_{n})_{n\in\mathbb{N}}\subset\mathbb{N}^2 \text{ for which }\lim x_{n}\xrightarrow[n->\infty]{X}(0,0)##.
Assume that X is not first-countable
##e)##

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


I'm having trouble visualizing the sets in ##\tau## I know from the first part that the every point which is not ##(0,0)## is open. Also I know that every union of such sets will also be open. Therefore ##\mathbb{N}^2## in itself is open. However I don't know how to visualize the other condition ##\exists N\ni : n\in\mathbb{N},n>N\implies(\{n\}\times\mathbb{N})\backslash U\text{ is finite}## I would really appreciate it if someone could explain to me how this sets look as I am unable to continue with the problem.
Thank you
 
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What does ##\ni :## mean? And are you sure it is an OR in the defining property? That makes every set which doesn't contain ##(0,0)## an open set. Can you draw an open set which includes the origin, e.g. are ##\{(0,0),(1,1)\}## or ##\{(0,0),(1,\mathbb{N})\}## open?
 
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https://i.gyazo.com/a809d7be047d7ed855211b4d51372367.png
a809d7be047d7ed855211b4d51372367.png

This is the original picture of the problem and pretty I'm sure that I translated it correctly. The ##\ni## is the main part that is bothering me because I don't know exactly what it means
 

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Well, let's see:
So the open sets ##U ## are those which:
1) Do not contain ## (0,0) ## or :
2) The collection of pairs ## (n+k) \times \mathbb N - U ; k=0,1,2,...= \{ (n \times \mathbb N), (n+1) \times \mathbb N ,...,(n+k) \times \mathbb N ,... \} -U ## is finite . This means ##U## must contain EDIT all but finitely-many of the sets in each of the collections ## (n+k) \times \mathbb N; k=0,1,2,... ##
Does this help?
 
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Best I can tell
This is the original picture of the problem and pretty I'm sure that I translated it correctly. The ##\ni## is the main part that is bothering me because I don't know exactly what it means[/QUOTE said:
...
It means something like " So that" , or " With the property that" . EDIT and so it seems like this may be:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofiniteness#Cofinite_topology
 
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Never seen it before. It probably means ##\forall ##. It's a bit strange and should be explained somewhere in the book.
Google translates "ali" by "but", so I assume it to mean "and" and not "or", which means that not all sets without the origin are open. Thus I read it as follows:
$$
U \in \tau \Longleftrightarrow (0,0) \notin U\; \wedge \; \exists N \in \mathbb{N}\; \forall n > N \, : \,\vert \, \{n\}\times \mathbb{N} \backslash U \,\vert < \infty
$$
I haven't checked whether it's a topology or not. I would feel more comfortable, if this guesswork above wouldn't had been necessary. Especially "ali" makes a major difference.
 
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fresh_42 said:
Never seen it before. It probably means ##\forall ##. It's a bit strange and should be explained somewhere in the book.
Google translates "ali" by "but", so I assume it to mean "and" and not "or", which means that not all sets without the origin are open.
.
No, I think only those who contain ##(0,0)## and all-but-finitely-many elements in the set. Ze Risky topology you suggested in Random Thoughts. EDIT Then open sets are either those that contain all-but-finitely many elements of ##\mathbb N^2 ## or those that miss the origin. I think it is clear to see closedeness under union: 1) If neither set contains the origin, neither will the union; if each contains all-but-finitely-many, so will the union. 2) Clearly the whole space is there, as it contains all but finitely many ( none) . And clearly the empty set is also there. EDIT2: Still, don't b) and d) contradict each other?
 
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WWGD said:
No, I think only those who contain ##(0,0)## and all-but-finitely-many elements in the set. Ze Risky topology you suggested in Random Thoughts.
You are right and Google translate was wrong!
I checked two other translation pages and they both had "ali = OR"
Corrected condition:
$$U\in \tau \Longleftrightarrow (0,0)\notin U \vee \exists N\in \mathbb{N} \; \forall n>N\, : \, |\,\{n\}×\mathbb{N} \,\backslash \,U\,| < \infty $$
 
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Thank you both
Now I tried to continue what WWGD said. A set open if it does not contain ##(0,0)## or there exists some number ##N## so that for every number greater than N ##(\{n\}\times\mathbb{N})\backslash U ## is finite.
So we need to check
##a)## whether any number of unions of such sets is again open
##b)## a finite number of intersection of such sets is again open
So checking for intersections:
Lets ignore the first part because if ##(0,0)\notin (A\wedge B)\implies (0,0)\notin A\cap B##
Now let's say that there exist two numbers ##N,M## for sets ##U,V##such that ##\forall n>N\implies(\{n\}\times\mathbb{N})\backslash U\text{ is finite}## and ##\forall n>M \implies(\{n\}\times\mathbb{N})\backslash V\text{ is finite}## if we define ##k=\max\{M,N\}## the set we again get is open because both ##U## and ##V## can only miss finite many points therefore their intersection can only miss finite many points.

I believe I understand now how this topology works and will probably be able to continue.

Thank you both very much for the help
 
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