Toppling an Object over a Table

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The discussion revolves around the mechanics of a rod and block system on a frictionless table, focusing on the conditions necessary for the rod to topple over. The user calculates the center of gravity and derives the velocity needed for the block to ensure the system is on the verge of toppling as it approaches the table's edge. There is debate about the interpretation of the problem, particularly regarding the timing of the block's motion relative to the rod's toppling. Clarifications are made regarding the diagram, which depicts a ball instead of a block, but the core calculations remain focused on the dynamics of the system. Ultimately, the conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding the relationship between the velocities of the block and the center of gravity in the context of toppling.
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Homework Statement
A uniform rectangular rod of length ##L##, having mass ##M## is placed at the edge of a frictionless table so that some portion of the rod rests on the table, and the other portion extends out of the table, and its center of gravity ##G## is a distance ##x## away from the edge of the table.
A block of mass ##m## is initially placed at the far end of the part of rod resting on the table, and given a velocity ##v##. If the coefficient of kinetic friction between the rod and the object is ##mu##, what must be the minimum value of ##v##, so that the rod can be made to topple over the table?
Relevant Equations
Equations of motion
Kinetic friction = ##\mu_k\cdot N##
Momentum = ##mv##
Torque = ##F\times d##
Here is a diagram of the situation.
1586167895185.png
I first marked the forces acting on the system.
1586168786042.png
I understand that for this rod to topple over, there must be a net moment about point ##A##. But how exactly should I approach this problem?

Isn't it so, that irrespective of the velocity given to the block, at some point both the rod and block will acquire equal velocities as a result of their acceleration and deceleration, and then just continue moving forward at that velocity?

If by any chance that were not the case, I tried solving it as follows.

First I calculate the distance to the center of gravity, say ##G'##, of the system from ##A##. We have
$$
GG'=\dfrac{m}{m+M}\cdot\dfrac{L}{2},
$$
and so we have
$$
\begin{align*}
AG'&=x+GG'\\
\\
&=\dfrac{2Mx+2mx+mL}{2(m+M)}.
\end{align*}
$$
Then, I observe that momentum in the system is conserved horizontally as there is no external horizontal force. Therefore,
$$
mv=(m+M)w\\
\text{ }\\
w=\dfrac{mv}{m+M},
$$
where ##w## is the velocity at which the center of gravity of the system will move after the block is given a velocity ##v##.

Next, I calculate the acceleration ##a## of the little block and get ##a=\dfrac{\mu mg}{m}=\mu g##.

If ##t## is the time that the block will take to come to rest, I have ##0=v-\mu gt##, so ##t=\dfrac{v}{\mu g}##.

If the distance that the center of gravity of the system moves in time ##t## is equal to ##AG'##, then the system will be at the verge of toppling over. Therefore,
$$
\begin{align*}
w\cdot t&=\dfrac{2Mx+2mx+mL}{2(m+M)}\\
\\
\dfrac{mv}{m+M}\cdot \dfrac{v}{\mu g}&=\dfrac{2Mx+2mx+mL}{2(m+M)}\\
\\
\dfrac{mv^2}{\mu g}&=\dfrac{2Mx+2mx+mL}{2}\\
\\
v^2&=\dfrac{\mu g}{2m}\cdot\left(2Mx+2mx+mL\right)\\
\\
v&=\sqrt{\mu g\left(x+\dfrac{L}{2}+\dfrac{Mx}{m}\right)}.
\end{align*}
$$
Is this correct?

Thank you very much for your assistance.
 
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the table is frictionless the center of mass of the system moves towards the edge of the table... what could stop it?
 
Last edited:
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SilverSoldier said:
If ##t## is the time that the block will take to come to rest,
As you noted, when it has the same velocity as the rod the acceleration will cease. It will never come to rest in the lab frame.
This bizarre question is familiar, but I cannot find it in the archives.
Where does it come from?

It is as though something has been left out, like toppling before the mass reaches the table edge, or is between there and the end of the rod, or after it has left the rod. But nothing seems to make sense.
 
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haruspex said:
Where does it come from?

It was on an A/L past paper book :smile:

haruspex said:
It is as though something has been left out, like toppling before the mass reaches the table edge, or is between there and the end of the rod, or after it has left the rod. But nothing seems to make sense.

I believe the question has an error in it or something then. Anyway, the velocity ##\sqrt{\mu g\left(x+\dfrac{L}{2}+\dfrac{Mx}{m}\right)}## I have found is the velocity that must be given to the block so that the system will be on the verge of toppling over, when its center of gravity will have reached the edge of the table?
 
SilverSoldier said:
the velocity ##\sqrt{\mu g\left(x+\dfrac{L}{2}+\dfrac{Mx}{m}\right)}## I have found is the velocity that must be given to the block so that the system will be on the verge of toppling over, when its center of gravity will have reached the edge of the table?
Not sure what you mean. It is always true that the system will be on the verge of toppling when its mass centre reaches the edge.

What you have found, I think, is the minimum velocity such that the block stops sliding before the system topples.
Another reasonable interpretation is to find the minimum velocity such that the block arrives at G before G reaches A. I.e, it topples before it would have done without the block.

Btw, your diagram shows a ball or cylinder, not a block.
 
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haruspex said:
What you have found, I think, is the minimum velocity such that the block stops sliding before the system topples.

Oh yes. I did mean to say that. I just noticed that I had left the "block stops sliding" part in my previous reply 🤦‍♂️😜.

haruspex said:
Another reasonable interpretation is to find the minimum velocity such that the block arrives at G before G reaches A. I.e, it topples before it would have done without the block.

If put another way, this means to find the velocity so that when the block stops moving, point ##G## and the ball would both be exactly above point ##A##?

haruspex said:
Btw, your diagram shows a ball or cylinder, not a block.

Well, it was just easier to draw a circle than a square 😇. It hasn't got to do anything with rolling.
 
SilverSoldier said:
If put another way, this means to find the velocity so that when the block stops moving, point G and the ball would both be exactly above point A?
Yes.
 
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