Toppling an Object over a Table

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    Table Toppling
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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem involving the toppling of a rod over the edge of a frictionless table, with a block interacting with the rod. Participants explore the dynamics of the system, including forces, moments, and the behavior of the center of mass.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the conditions necessary for the rod to topple, including the net moment about a pivot point. There are questions regarding the relationship between the velocities of the block and the rod, and whether the block can come to rest in the lab frame. Some participants express confusion about the problem's setup and its implications.

Discussion Status

There is an ongoing exploration of the problem's assumptions and interpretations. Some participants suggest that the question may have errors or missing information, while others provide insights into the conditions for toppling and the velocities involved. No consensus has been reached, but various interpretations are being considered.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the table is frictionless, which affects the dynamics of the system. There is also mention of potential ambiguities in the problem statement regarding the timing of events as the block interacts with the rod.

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Homework Statement
A uniform rectangular rod of length ##L##, having mass ##M## is placed at the edge of a frictionless table so that some portion of the rod rests on the table, and the other portion extends out of the table, and its center of gravity ##G## is a distance ##x## away from the edge of the table.
A block of mass ##m## is initially placed at the far end of the part of rod resting on the table, and given a velocity ##v##. If the coefficient of kinetic friction between the rod and the object is ##mu##, what must be the minimum value of ##v##, so that the rod can be made to topple over the table?
Relevant Equations
Equations of motion
Kinetic friction = ##\mu_k\cdot N##
Momentum = ##mv##
Torque = ##F\times d##
Here is a diagram of the situation.
1586167895185.png
I first marked the forces acting on the system.
1586168786042.png
I understand that for this rod to topple over, there must be a net moment about point ##A##. But how exactly should I approach this problem?

Isn't it so, that irrespective of the velocity given to the block, at some point both the rod and block will acquire equal velocities as a result of their acceleration and deceleration, and then just continue moving forward at that velocity?

If by any chance that were not the case, I tried solving it as follows.

First I calculate the distance to the center of gravity, say ##G'##, of the system from ##A##. We have
$$
GG'=\dfrac{m}{m+M}\cdot\dfrac{L}{2},
$$
and so we have
$$
\begin{align*}
AG'&=x+GG'\\
\\
&=\dfrac{2Mx+2mx+mL}{2(m+M)}.
\end{align*}
$$
Then, I observe that momentum in the system is conserved horizontally as there is no external horizontal force. Therefore,
$$
mv=(m+M)w\\
\text{ }\\
w=\dfrac{mv}{m+M},
$$
where ##w## is the velocity at which the center of gravity of the system will move after the block is given a velocity ##v##.

Next, I calculate the acceleration ##a## of the little block and get ##a=\dfrac{\mu mg}{m}=\mu g##.

If ##t## is the time that the block will take to come to rest, I have ##0=v-\mu gt##, so ##t=\dfrac{v}{\mu g}##.

If the distance that the center of gravity of the system moves in time ##t## is equal to ##AG'##, then the system will be at the verge of toppling over. Therefore,
$$
\begin{align*}
w\cdot t&=\dfrac{2Mx+2mx+mL}{2(m+M)}\\
\\
\dfrac{mv}{m+M}\cdot \dfrac{v}{\mu g}&=\dfrac{2Mx+2mx+mL}{2(m+M)}\\
\\
\dfrac{mv^2}{\mu g}&=\dfrac{2Mx+2mx+mL}{2}\\
\\
v^2&=\dfrac{\mu g}{2m}\cdot\left(2Mx+2mx+mL\right)\\
\\
v&=\sqrt{\mu g\left(x+\dfrac{L}{2}+\dfrac{Mx}{m}\right)}.
\end{align*}
$$
Is this correct?

Thank you very much for your assistance.
 
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the table is frictionless the center of mass of the system moves towards the edge of the table... what could stop it?
 
Last edited:
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SilverSoldier said:
If ##t## is the time that the block will take to come to rest,
As you noted, when it has the same velocity as the rod the acceleration will cease. It will never come to rest in the lab frame.
This bizarre question is familiar, but I cannot find it in the archives.
Where does it come from?

It is as though something has been left out, like toppling before the mass reaches the table edge, or is between there and the end of the rod, or after it has left the rod. But nothing seems to make sense.
 
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haruspex said:
Where does it come from?

It was on an A/L past paper book :smile:

haruspex said:
It is as though something has been left out, like toppling before the mass reaches the table edge, or is between there and the end of the rod, or after it has left the rod. But nothing seems to make sense.

I believe the question has an error in it or something then. Anyway, the velocity ##\sqrt{\mu g\left(x+\dfrac{L}{2}+\dfrac{Mx}{m}\right)}## I have found is the velocity that must be given to the block so that the system will be on the verge of toppling over, when its center of gravity will have reached the edge of the table?
 
SilverSoldier said:
the velocity ##\sqrt{\mu g\left(x+\dfrac{L}{2}+\dfrac{Mx}{m}\right)}## I have found is the velocity that must be given to the block so that the system will be on the verge of toppling over, when its center of gravity will have reached the edge of the table?
Not sure what you mean. It is always true that the system will be on the verge of toppling when its mass centre reaches the edge.

What you have found, I think, is the minimum velocity such that the block stops sliding before the system topples.
Another reasonable interpretation is to find the minimum velocity such that the block arrives at G before G reaches A. I.e, it topples before it would have done without the block.

Btw, your diagram shows a ball or cylinder, not a block.
 
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haruspex said:
What you have found, I think, is the minimum velocity such that the block stops sliding before the system topples.

Oh yes. I did mean to say that. I just noticed that I had left the "block stops sliding" part in my previous reply 🤦‍♂️😜.

haruspex said:
Another reasonable interpretation is to find the minimum velocity such that the block arrives at G before G reaches A. I.e, it topples before it would have done without the block.

If put another way, this means to find the velocity so that when the block stops moving, point ##G## and the ball would both be exactly above point ##A##?

haruspex said:
Btw, your diagram shows a ball or cylinder, not a block.

Well, it was just easier to draw a circle than a square 😇. It hasn't got to do anything with rolling.
 
SilverSoldier said:
If put another way, this means to find the velocity so that when the block stops moving, point G and the ball would both be exactly above point A?
Yes.
 
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