Tough lemma on locally finite refinement

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a lemma concerning locally compact, Hausdorff, and second countable topological spaces. Participants explore the proof of the lemma, which asserts that every open cover of such a space has a countable, locally finite refinement consisting of open sets with compact closures. The conversation includes technical details about the proof and clarifications regarding the properties of the sets involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether every set in the basis ##\lbrace U_n \rbrace## has compact closure, given that the lemma's proof relies on local compactness.
  • There is a discussion about the existence of a smallest integer ##k_1## such that the closure of a set ##V_1## is contained within a finite union of basic open sets, with some participants expressing confusion about why this is the case.
  • One participant suggests that the closure of ##V_1## could potentially belong to an infinite union of basic open sets, raising questions about the implications of compactness and finite subcovers.
  • Another participant clarifies that it is not necessary for all sets in the basis to have compact closure, citing the ability to choose points within the sets and the nature of local compactness.
  • Concerns are raised about the local finiteness of the refinement, particularly regarding intersections of sets ##W_i^j## and ##W_l^k## when the indices differ by more than 4.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the compactness of closures of sets in the basis and the implications of local finiteness in the refinement. There is no consensus on these points, and multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the definitions of local compactness and the properties of the topological space in question. Some mathematical steps remain unresolved, particularly concerning the existence of the integer ##k_1## and the nature of intersections among the sets in the refinement.

Korybut
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TL;DR
Finite refinement of locally compact, Hausdorff and second countable topological space
Hello!

I have some troubles diving in the proof of this lemma

Lemma. Let ##S## be locally compact, Hausdorff and second countable. Then every open cover ##\lbrace U_\alpha \rbrace## of ##S## has a countable, locally finite refinement consisting of open sets with compact closures.

Proof. Since ##S## is second countable, there exists a countable family ##\lbrace U_n \rbrace## of open sets in ##S##, which forms a basis for the topology of ##S##. Let ##\lbrace U_{n_k} \rbrace## be a subcollection consisting of sets with compact closures.

The assumption that ##S## is Hausdorff and locally compact implies that ##\lbrace U_{n_k} \rbrace ## is a basis for the topology of ##S##. This can be seen as follows. Since ##S## is locally compact, given a point ##x \in S## there exists a compact set ##C## in ##S## containing an open neighbourhood ##U## of ##x##. That is, ##x\in U \subseteq C##. Since ##C## is a compact subset of the Hausdorff space ##S##, it is closed. Hence, ##\bar{U} \subseteq C##, which implies that ##\bar{U}## is compact. The assumption that ##\lbrace U_n ## is a basis implies that there exists ##n_x## such that ##x\in U_{n_x} \subseteq U##. Hence, ##U_{n_x}## is compact. Therefore, ##U_{n_x}\in \lbrace U_{n_k} \rbrace##.

These two paragraphs are almost clear. The only question I have is the following. Since point ##x## is not fixed I can change it and pick corresponding ##U_{n_x}##. Does it imply that every ## U_n## from the collection that form a basis has compact closure? I did not manage to find counter example

We set ##V_{-1} = V_0 = \emptyset## and take ##V_1 = U_{n_1}##. There exists a smallest integer ##k_1## such that ##\bar{V}_1\subseteq U_{n_1}\cup ... \cup U_{n_{k_1}}##. We now set ##V_2 = V_1 \cup U_{n_2}\cup ... \cup U_{n_{k_1}}##. Continuing in this way, we obtain a sequence of open sets ##V_j = U_{n_1}\cup ... \cup U_{n_{k_j}}## for every ##j\in\mathbb{N}##, where ##n_{k_j}## is the smallest integer such that ##\bar{V}_{j-1}\subseteq V_{j-1} \cup ... U_{n_{k_{j-1}+1 }}\cup ...\cup U_{n_{k_j}}## . For each ##j##, the closure ##\bar{V_j}## of ##V_j## is contained in ##V_{j+1}## and ##\cup_{j=1}^\infty V_j=S##. For each ##j\in \mathbb{N}##, the set ##\bar{V_j}\setminus V_{j-1}## is compact and is contained in the open set ##V_{j+1}\setminus\bar{V}_{j-2}##.

Why there is such an integer ##k_1##? ##\bar{V_1}## is compact due to previous paragraphs but ##\lbrace U_{n_k} \rbrace## is just a basis. Why closure cannot belong to infinite union of basic open sets?

Let ##\lbrace U_\alpha\rbrace_{\alpha \in A}## be an arbitrary open cover of ##S##. Hence, ##\lbrace U_\alpha \cap (V_{j+1}\setminus\bar{V}_{j-2})\rbrace_{\alpha \in A}## is an open cover of the compact set ##\bar{V}_j\setminus V_{j-1}## and it admits a finite subcover. We denote by ##\lbrace W_1^j, . . . , W_{m_j}^j\rbrace## the finite collection of sets in ##\lbrace U_\alpha \cap (V_{j+1}\setminus\bar{V}_{j-2})\rbrace_{\alpha \in A}## which cover ##\bar{V}_j\setminus V_{j-1}##. Each ##W_i^j## is contained in a compact set ##\bar{V}_{j+1}##. Hence, ##\bar{W}_i^j## is compact. Moreover, for some ##\alpha \in A##, ##W_i^j =U_\alpha \cap (V_{j+1}\setminus\bar{V}_{j-2})##, so that ##W_i^j\subseteq U_\alpha##. Moreover, ##W_i^j \cap W_l^k = \emptyset## if | j -k |> 4. Finally, ##\cup_{j=1}^\infty \cup_{i=1}^{m_j} W_i^j = S##. Hence, the collection ##\lbrace W_i^j \vert i = 1, . . . , m_j, j\in \mathbb{N}\rbrace## is a countable, locally finite refinement of ##\lbrace U_\alpha \rbrace## and consists of open sets with compact closures.

I am not here yet to ask any reasonable questions. But looks fine after couple of readings.

Many thanks in advance
 
Last edited:
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Korybut said:
TL;DR Summary: Finite refinement of locally compact, Hausdorff and second countable topological space

Why there is such an integer k1? V1¯ is compact due to previous paragraphs but {Unk} is just a basis. Why closure cannot belong to infinite union of basic open sets?
It is clear now and it is very easy. Let closure of ##V_1## is covered by finite amount of open sets which are not necessary basic elements. Let some of this open sets are generated by infinite union of basic set. This is still a cover and due to compactness there is finite subcover of basic open sets.

Part that is not clear is weather ##\lbrace U_n \rbrace## from the original basis all have compact closure?
 
Last edited:
Korybut said:
Part that is not clear is weather {Un} from the original basis all have compact closure?
Not necessary. I can not the proof that was presented. I can pick any ##U_n## from the basis ##\lbrace U_n \rbrace## and choose any point say ##y## within ##U_n##. Due to local compactness there are open ##U## and compact ##C## such that ## x\in U \subseteq C##. However ##U_n## might not be a subset of this particular ##U##.

After two days. Lemma is not tough afterall
 
Korybut said:
TL;DR Summary: Finite refinement of locally compact, Hausdorff and second countable topological space

Moreover, Wij∩Wlk=∅ if | j -k |> 4. Finally, ∪j=1∞∪i=1mjWij=S. Hence, the collection
I believe this should insist that ##\lbrace W_i^j \rbrace## is locally finite however I am confused. If ##|j-k| <4## then this intersection can be non empty so locally finite refinement is not presented. Or I miss something... Need help

I get why within 4 steps intersection is trivial
##\bar{V}_{j+1} \subseteq V_{j+2}\subseteq \bar{V}_{j+2}##
thus ##\bar{V}_{j+1} \nsubseteq V_{j+5} \setminus \bar{V}_{j+2}##. And hence presented in the proof intersection in indeed trivial. Why others?
 
Last edited:
Korybut said:
TL;DR Summary: Finite refinement of locally compact, Hausdorff and second countable topological space

Hello!

I have some troubles diving in the proof of this lemma

Lemma. Let ##S## be locally compact, Hausdorff and second countable. Then every open cover ##\lbrace U_\alpha \rbrace## of ##S## has a countable, locally finite refinement consisting of open sets with compact closures.

Proof. Since ##S## is second countable, there exists a countable family ##\lbrace U_n \rbrace## of open sets in ##S##, which forms a basis for the topology of ##S##. Let ##\lbrace U_{n_k} \rbrace## be a subcollection consisting of sets with compact closures.

The assumption that ##S## is Hausdorff and locally compact implies that ##\lbrace U_{n_k} \rbrace ## is a basis for the topology of ##S##. This can be seen as follows. Since ##S## is locally compact, given a point ##x \in S## there exists a compact set ##C## in ##S## containing an open neighbourhood ##U## of ##x##. That is, ##x\in U \subseteq C##. Since ##C## is a compact subset of the Hausdorff space ##S##, it is closed. Hence, ##\bar{U} \subseteq C##, which implies that ##\bar{U}## is compact. The assumption that ##\lbrace U_n ## is a basis implies that there exists ##n_x## such that ##x\in U_{n_x} \subseteq U##. Hence, ##U_{n_x}## is compact. Therefore, ##U_{n_x}\in \lbrace U_{n_k} \rbrace##.

These two paragraphs are almost clear. The only question I have is the following. Since point ##x## is not fixed I can change it and pick corresponding ##U_{n_x}##. Does it imply that every ## U_n## from the collection that form a basis has compact closure? I did not manage to find counter example

We set ##V_{-1} = V_0 = \emptyset## and take ##V_1 = U_{n_1}##. There exists a smallest integer ##k_1## such that ##\bar{V}_1\subseteq U_{n_1}\cup ... \cup U_{n_{k_1}}##. We now set ##V_2 = V_1 \cup U_{n_2}\cup ... \cup U_{n_{k_1}}##. Continuing in this way, we obtain a sequence of open sets ##V_j = U_{n_1}\cup ... \cup U_{n_{k_j}}## for every ##j\in\mathbb{N}##, where ##n_{k_j}## is the smallest integer such that ##\bar{V}_{j-1}\subseteq V_{j-1} \cup ... U_{n_{k_{j-1}+1 }}\cup ...\cup U_{n_{k_j}}## . For each ##j##, the closure ##\bar{V_j}## of ##V_j## is contained in ##V_{j+1}## and ##\cup_{j=1}^\infty V_j=S##. For each ##j\in \mathbb{N}##, the set ##\bar{V_j}\setminus V_{j-1}## is compact and is contained in the open set ##V_{j+1}\setminus\bar{V}_{j-2}##.

Why there is such an integer ##k_1##? ##\bar{V_1}## is compact due to previous paragraphs but ##\lbrace U_{n_k} \rbrace## is just a basis. Why closure cannot belong to infinite union of basic open sets?

Let ##\lbrace U_\alpha\rbrace_{\alpha \in A}## be an arbitrary open cover of ##S##. Hence, ##\lbrace U_\alpha \cap (V_{j+1}\setminus\bar{V}_{j-2})\rbrace_{\alpha \in A}## is an open cover of the compact set ##\bar{V}_j\setminus V_{j-1}## and it admits a finite subcover. We denote by ##\lbrace W_1^j, . . . , W_{m_j}^j\rbrace## the finite collection of sets in ##\lbrace U_\alpha \cap (V_{j+1}\setminus\bar{V}_{j-2})\rbrace_{\alpha \in A}## which cover ##\bar{V}_j\setminus V_{j-1}##. Each ##W_i^j## is contained in a compact set ##\bar{V}_{j+1}##. Hence, ##\bar{W}_i^j## is compact. Moreover, for some ##\alpha \in A##, ##W_i^j =U_\alpha \cap (V_{j+1}\setminus\bar{V}_{j-2})##, so that ##W_i^j\subseteq U_\alpha##. Moreover, ##W_i^j \cap W_l^k = \emptyset## if | j -k |> 4. Finally, ##\cup_{j=1}^\infty \cup_{i=1}^{m_j} W_i^j = S##. Hence, the collection ##\lbrace W_i^j \vert i = 1, . . . , m_j, j\in \mathbb{N}\rbrace## is a countable, locally finite refinement of ##\lbrace U_\alpha \rbrace## and consists of open sets with compact closures.

I am not here yet to ask any reasonable questions. But looks fine after couple of readings.

Many thanks in advance
To answer your first question, the answer is no. For example, we can use the intervals with rational endpoints as a base for ##\mathbb R##, but also include the open set of the entire real line and it is still a countable set and the entire real line is not contained in any compact set.
 
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jbergman said:
To answer your first question, the answer is no. For example, we can use the intervals with rational endpoints as a base for ##\mathbb R##, but also include the open set of the entire real line and it is still a countable set and the entire real line is not contained in any compact set.
Thanks! Your example exhibits the obstruction I was missing.

How about the last step of the proof? I know it is technical, sorry for that
Korybut said:
I believe this should insist that ##\lbrace W_i^j \rbrace## is locally finite however I am confused. If ##|j-k| <4## then this intersection can be non empty so locally finite refinement is not presented. Or I miss something... Need help

I get why within 4 steps intersection is trivial
##\bar{V}_{j+1} \subseteq V_{j+2}\subseteq \bar{V}_{j+2}##
thus ##\bar{V}_{j+1} \nsubseteq V_{j+5} \setminus \bar{V}_{j+2}##. And hence presented in the proof intersection in indeed trivial. Why others?
 
Korybut said:
I believe this should insist that ##\lbrace W_i^j \rbrace## is locally finite however I am confused. If ##|j-k| <4## then this intersection can be non empty so locally finite refinement is not presented. Or I miss something... Need help

I get why within 4 steps intersection is trivial
##\bar{V}_{j+1} \subseteq V_{j+2}\subseteq \bar{V}_{j+2}##
thus ##\bar{V}_{j+1} \nsubseteq V_{j+5} \setminus \bar{V}_{j+2}##. And hence presented in the proof intersection in indeed trivial. Why others?
Problem occur due to my terrible misunderstanding of what is locally finite space. In my notes I have "Topological space where each point is contained in finitely many open sets", don't know where I found this one. With correct definition everything is obviously fine with the proof.
 
Korybut said:
Problem occur due to my terrible misunderstanding of what is locally finite space. In my notes I have "Topological space where each point is contained in finitely many open sets", don't know where I found this one. With correct definition everything is obviously fine with the proof.
Looking back at your first post on this thread I don't see where it proves that the cover is locally finite. O only see that you can find a subcover consisting of open sets with compact closures.

It seems like there is still more work to show the existence of a cover that is locally finite.
 
jbergman said:
Looking back at your first post on this thread I don't see where it proves that the cover is locally finite. O only see that you can find a subcover consisting of open sets with compact closures.

It seems like there is still more work to show the existence of a cover that is locally finite.
Actually everything is finished or at least perfectly clear to me now. These sets ##\lbrace W_i^j \rbrace## are indeed locally finite refinement of arbitrary cover ##\lbrace U_\alpha \rbrace_{\alpha\in A}## (Not the best notation IMO since ##\lbrace U_n \rbrace## is basis for topology).
 

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