Trying to write falling rod energies as Hamiltonian

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a theoretical problem involving a pin balanced on its tip, exploring the Hamiltonian formulation of its energy as it begins to fall. The participants are examining the implications of classical and quantum mechanics in this context, particularly focusing on the expression for total energy in terms of momentum and lateral displacement.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the use of Taylor approximations to simplify expressions related to the gravitational energy of the pin. There are attempts to express the total energy in the required Hamiltonian form, with questions about the relevance of constant terms and the implications of energy conservation.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants providing suggestions and clarifications regarding the mathematical approach. There is an ongoing exploration of how to manipulate the energy expression to fit the desired form, and some participants express uncertainty about specific terms and their significance in the Hamiltonian context.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating the constraints of the problem, including assumptions about the pin's height and the small lateral displacement. The discussion also touches on the nature of the Hamiltonian and the role of additive constants in energy expressions.

masterkenichi
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"Consider an infinitely sharp pin of mass M and height H perfectly balanced on its tip. Assume that the mass of the pin is all at the ball on the top of the pin. Classically, we expect the pin to remain in this state forever. Quantum mechanics, however, predicts that the pin will fall over within a finite amount of time. This can be shown as follows:
Show that the total energy of the pin (aka. the Hamiltonian) can be expressed in the
form:
E = Ap^2 − Bx^2
if we assume that x << H. p is the momentum of the pin and x is the lateral displacement of the head of the pin. Find expressions for A and B."


My attempt:
When the pin head moves laterally a distance x, it will have lost some gravitational energy equal to E_g = mg\sqrt{H^2-x^2}.
My first shot at this is to write E = P^2/(2m) + mgy, where y= \sqrt{H^2-x^2}; however, I don't think this can be reduced to the form called for. Suggestions?
 
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You should do a Taylor approximation of the expression y= \sqrt{H^2-x^2}. For x/H << 1, sqrt{H^2-x^2} = H sqrt{1-(x/H)^2} = H (1 - (1/2)(x/H)^2 + ...). The first term is a constant, and the second is the one you need.
 
Thank you very much for your help, but I'm a little uncertain what you mean by
The first term is a constant, and the second is the one you need.


This approximation results in the term E = (1/2m)p^2 + mgy, where y = H-x^2/{2H}, which I can't write in the form Bx^2. Is the constant term is not relevant?
 
masterkenichi said:
Thank you very much for your help, but I'm a little uncertain what you mean by



This approximation results in the term E = (1/2m)p^2 + mgy, where y = H-x^2/{2H}, which I can't write in the form Bx^2. Is the constant term is not relevant?

Shouldn't you have:
\Delta E = \frac{p^2}{2m} + mgy
And assuming conservation of Energy:
\Delta E=0
 
masterkenichi said:
This approximation results in the term E = (1/2m)p^2 + mgy, where y = H-x^2/{2H}, which I can't write in the form Bx^2. Is the constant term is not relevant?

Hamiltonian is always uncertain up to an additive constant (it is because the equations of motion involve only the derivatives of Hamiltonian). Just remember that you are free to choose any point to be reference point and have energy E=0.
 

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